Shure m447 replacement stylus after discontinuation

Haven't replaced my stylus' on my SHURE M447 cartridges since they got discontinued.

Wondering if anyone here was in the same boat and if they switched to different cartridges or try alternative stylus like this one?

https://www.juno.co.uk/products/tonar-n447-replacement-diamond-stylus-for-shure/699418-01/?currency=GBP&flt=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqpKph9WX3gIVy-J3Ch1bZga6EAQYBSABEgK9A_D_BwE

Lots of people have been asking about the Tonar ones lately but I haven't heard any reports on them yet.
The Jico ones are allegedly very good:

https://youtu.be/Viw4YF4x-Hk

Just replaced the stylus on my V15 Type 5. I must say that I am very favorably impressed with the Jico stylii. I think the M447 runs around $29. My instinct tells me that if you can afford the difference between the Tonar and Jico you will be satisfied and then some.

go jico.

they do great Stanton styli too.

I don't know for sure but the Tonar ones could be Jico sourced according to this discussion:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/jico-styli-black-dot.718428/

Havent replaced
mine yet

I am exactly on the same boat. My 5 months n447 was bent and even being able to put in more or less on its place to play a gig it is tilted to one side so probably won’t last long. Juno sells tonar, I was wondering if anyone did an AB test with a original one to see how it performs

MAMartins
Juno sells tonar, I was wondering if anyone did an AB test with a original one to see how it performs

Youtube review here, from a turntablist point of view but may be of interest:

https://youtu.be/OWB3hkDRtTA

edit: Tonar also mentioned in this comparison:

https://youtu.be/B6n2SG6CTVI

Thanks! Juno also sells one from atrylogy but this I cannot even find a website

If anyone is looking, I sell the Tonar ones ($25cdn plus shipping). And they are indeed sourced from Jico....

Jelloalien
If anyone is looking, I sell the Tonar ones ($25cdn plus shipping). And they are indeed sourced from Jico....

I've read this elsewhere, do you know what the source is? Has Jico confirmed?

does anyone know what the copy replacement is for the shure whitelabel cart, had mine well over 2 years now so probably need new styli...ta..

five rows below this thread...
https://discogs.cinepelis.org/group/thread/731045

Just received two Jico SHURE N44G for my M44G's today.
They sound terrible next to a real SHURE stylus. In comparison they sound louder, distorted, lack space, the tops and bass lack detail and precision......... Do these problems decrease once you wear them in a bit? I really hope so because otherwise us SHURE survivors are all f**ked!

Which ones did you get? Jico also does "DJ improved" and "club improved" versions which need to be set at a higher weight setting than the original Shure needles. I believe all their 44 knock off's need to be run at least on 3 gram. I run my M44G on 2.5 gram and the 44-7 on 3 gram for DJing with zero problems since decades.
regular: https://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info.php?products_id=1010
DJ improved: https://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info.php?products_id=1741
Club improved: https://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info.php?products_id=1744
Need to buy one for my 44-7 after I killed one stylus recently. The Stanton and Pickering replacements by Jico are great, bought a couple of these already.

I have 4 n44g left. I found out today that Shure discontinued all their phono cartridges and styli! Damn. Now what? I've never heard the Jico styli. I do know they've been around for many years. Of course, no one has ed any side to side tests to check audio fidelity. Has anyone recorded off their n44g Jico and compared it to another quality styli, such as an Audio Technica or Shure, and posted it online?

Here's a comparison of a Jico M44G vs. Ortofon Nightclub
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBe7O2ovhlU
and here's a rundown of M44-7 and M44G Jico styli
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Viw4YF4x-Hk
At the price they're definitely worth a try, the styli they make for Pickering and Stanton are perfect. If there's one brand to trust on aftermarket styli I'd say it's Jico.
Basically, just buy the Jico/Tonar ones. The M44-7 or G isn't really a stylus for fidelity anyway. The above slaughtering of the Jico stylus sounds as if they've been run on too little weight. Run the OG 44-7 on the specified weight and be surprised how shitty it sounds. thakker.eu has the Jico replacement for 35 Euro
Jico styli are also sold as "Stylus Company" brand, here's one for 15 Euro: https://www.ebay.de/itm/122167611583

...............

pulsemod
I'll test it for the team at that price. I'll post a side by side recording and post it on the net. I'll post a link here.

Cheers that would be great if you can.

have been using the Jico version for about a month and while it doesn't hold the vinyl as well as the Shure for mixing/scratching, and there's a bit too much low end, other than that the sound it good overall it's a solid substitute.

krylon80
have been using the Jico version for about a month and while it doesn't hold the vinyl as well as the Shure for mixing/scratching, and there's a bit too much low end, other than that the sound it good overall it's a solid substitute.

Did you get the 'vanilla' (1.5-3g tracking force), DJ or Club (both 3.5-4.5g tracking force) model? It seems like they couldn't replicate that feature of the Shure stylus so instead made the 'DJ' version to handle increased weight of 3.5-4.5g.. I'd like good tracking with a low force like the Shure styli were.. I was going to get the 1.5-3g vanilla Jico's to test, but will be sad if they don't track well for DJ performance, and end up needing to get the 'DJ' variant and track at 3.5-4.5g.. I would usually DJ with the original Shure styli at between 2.5-3 tracking force and that would do the job for a nightclub environment, but considering may need 3-3.5g for the 'vanilla' and potentially 4-5g for the DJ.. the less is better, I really don't want to use 4g+ tracking force on my vinyl! Control vinyl not so important (but still saves having to buy more, more often, if they last longer) but I definitely don't want to tear up my real vinyl with super high tracking forces (just to stop needle skips during backspins, cueing, juggling or scratching).

pulsemod
If my research yielded the truth, rather than the usual audio marketing BS (the consumer audio market is full of BS), the "Tonar" brand is a re-branding of Jico's n44g aftermarket stylus.

Juno had the "Tonar" re-brand for $23.25 shipped to the USA. I'll test it for that price. I'll do some recordings and post them on the net. I'll post a link here.

I hope you mean that the 'N44-7' branded one is a Jico N44-7, and not an N44-G - the Jico N44-G (vanilla) is 0.75-1.5g recommended tracking force, the N44-7 is 1.5-3g. The DJ and Club models (for both 7 & G variants) run at 3.5-4.5g tracking force. That sort of force is why I don't use Ortofon carts regularly and I got Shure M447 in the first place.

Anyway places like 'Bop DJ' and others are advertising as 'Tonar / Jico' and they have the same tracking force spec as the vanilla Jico - 1.5-3g. I presume you meant to say N44-7 and not G.. about to order from Bop DJ (cheapest price I could find to Australia, $84 AUD for two including postage and GST). Actually, scratch that, Juno UK with postage and GST comes to around $74, after international credit card fee or paypal fee they charge. For $37 AUD each including postage, fees and tax that's not bad at all. I have a couple of spare Shure N447 in packs ready to open if I need but really want to save doing that now I see how much they are worth..

Has anyone compared the sound quality, tracking and vinyl wear between the 1.5-3g vanilla and 'DJ' 3.5-4.5g Jico 44-7 models?

NinjaGaijin
I'd like good tracking with a low force like the Shure styli were.

The M44-7/44-G were actually only of use with weight at about 2.5 to 3 grams anyway. They sound horrible at lower settings

NinjaGaijin
krylon80
have been using the Jico version for about a month and while it doesn't hold the vinyl as well as the Shure for mixing/scratching, and there's a bit too much low end, other than that the sound it good overall it's a solid substitute.

Did you get the 'vanilla' (1.5-3g tracking force), DJ or Club (both 3.5-4.5g tracking force) model? It seems like they couldn't replicate that feature of the Shure stylus so instead made the 'DJ' version to handle increased weight of 3.5-4.5g.. I'd like good tracking with a low force like the Shure styli were.. I was going to get the 1.5-3g vanilla Jico's to test, but will be sad if they don't track well for DJ performance, and end up needing to get the 'DJ' variant and track at 3.5-4.5g.. I would usually DJ with the original Shure styli at between 2.5-3 tracking force and that would do the job for a nightclub environment, but considering may need 3-3.5g for the 'vanilla' and potentially 4-5g for the DJ.. the less is better, I really don't want to use 4g+ tracking force on my vinyl! Control vinyl not so important (but still saves having to buy more, more often, if they last longer) but I definitely don't want to tear up my real vinyl with super high tracking forces (just to stop needle skips during backspins, cueing, juggling or scratching).

club. i used 2.5 to 3 with the shure M447, and at the same force the Jico doesn't track quite as well.

krylon80
NinjaGaijinkrylon80
have been using the Jico version for about a month and while it doesn't hold the vinyl as well as the Shure for mixing/scratching, and there's a bit too much low end, other than that the sound it good overall it's a solid substitute.

Did you get the 'vanilla' (1.5-3g tracking force), DJ or Club (both 3.5-4.5g tracking force) model? It seems like they couldn't replicate that feature of the Shure stylus so instead made the 'DJ' version to handle increased weight of 3.5-4.5g.. I'd like good tracking with a low force like the Shure styli were.. I was going to get the 1.5-3g vanilla Jico's to test, but will be sad if they don't track well for DJ performance, and end up needing to get the 'DJ' variant and track at 3.5-4.5g.. I would usually DJ with the original Shure styli at between 2.5-3 tracking force and that would do the job for a nightclub environment, but considering may need 3-3.5g for the 'vanilla' and potentially 4-5g for the DJ.. the less is better, I really don't want to use 4g+ tracking force on my vinyl! Control vinyl not so important (but still saves having to buy more, more often, if they last longer) but I definitely don't want to tear up my real vinyl with super high tracking forces (just to stop needle skips during backspins, cueing, juggling or scratching).

club. i used 2.5 to 3 with the shure M447, and at the same force the Jico doesn't track quite as well.

Damn, I thought that would be the case. Will try Tonar first then some DJ/DJ Improved Jico I think

This is the "Tonar" brand stylus I bought from Juno in the UK:

https://www.juno.co.uk/products/tonar-n44g-replacement-diamond-stylus-for-shure/699419-01/

Sorry to report... The basses occasionally distort. It sounds okay, except for the occasional distortion. I used the recommended tracking weight to begin with; the basses occasionally distort. I added a tad of tracking weight; still, the basses occasionally distort. It always distorted in the same places. Which means the distortion isn't random, certain low frequencies cause distortion. Some basses were fine, while others distorted.

did you break in the carts and for how long? The Shure OGs also needed some time to settle and don't track very well straight out the box. Gonna buy one of the Jico 44-7 replacements soon and will compare them to an OG.

pulsemod
This is the "Tonar" brand stylus I bought from Juno in the UK:

https://www.juno.co.uk/products/tonar-n44g-replacement-diamond-stylus-for-shure/699419-01/

Sorry to report... The basses occasionally distort. It sounds okay, except for the occasional distortion. I used the recommended tracking weight to begin with; the basses occasionally distort. I added a tad of tracking weight; still, the basses occasionally distort. It always distorted in the same places. Which means the distortion isn't random, certain low frequencies cause distortion. Some basses were fine, while others distorted.

Darn.. I managed to confirm with Jico, that the 'N44-7 DJ' and N44-G DJ' and 'Skratch' models are exactly the same specs - 20-20kHz, 5-8mV output, 1.5 channel balance, L28/R30 channel separation. The only difference is the 'vanilla' ones are 1.5-3g tracking force, whereas the DJ/Club/Skratch etc are 3.5-4.5g.

Could not find out if the Tonar are rebranded Jico but seems possible. They advised that the only difference between the 'N44-7' and 'N44-G' models (1.5-3g) and the 'N44-7 DJ/Club' and 'N44-G DJ/Club' is the colour of the body.

IF the Tonar are actually different to Jico (maybe Tonar are getting their styli from a Swiss company, since I see generic replacements on Ebay listed as 'by a Swiss company') then maybe there is some difference between the 'G' and the 267 replacements.. but I am doubtful and presume that both are Jico rebrands.

Another possibility could be that the Tonar ones are an older design (maybe the old original Jico versions that included Lumino etc) and that's why Tonar are only selling 1.5-3g tracking force models. I'm hoping though that they are the 'current' Jico model/design if they are Jico rebrands. But who could really know.. I will report back when I test out the Tonar 267's. They should turn up any day now.

One thing that is interesting, the 'G' model from Tonar costs a little bit more than the '7' model for some reason.. https://www.juno.co.uk/products/tonar-n447-replacement-diamond-stylus-for-shure/699418-01/

I still can't tell if the Jico and Tonar are actually different products. I will probably end up buying both to compare, but will get the 3.5-4.5g Jico next I presume (as it seems from some research, the Jico don't track well at 1.5-3g either, often, so that is why they have the 3.5-4.5g models). Not sure if in the event of the Tonar not working out for me, if I would be willing to experiment with the (identical looking and maybe exactly the same) Jico vanilla N44-7 (1.5-3g model) which costs a fair bit more. If I do though I will try to compare and see if any differences. If I have issues with both the Jico 3.5-4.5g N44-7 DJ Improved as well as the Tonar 267, I'll be pretty annoyed (and forced to start saving up for a pair of Ortofon OM's).

HM-2
did you break in the carts and for how long? The Shure OGs also needed some time to settle and don't track very well straight out the box. Gonna buy one of the Jico 44-7 replacements soon and will compare them to an OG.

I've heard that Shure, Jico and Tonar all need time to break in - would leaving the tonearm/stylus resting on a piece of vinyl for a night or two be a decent way to start the process? I realise actually playing the thing is best but is that an ok warm up? I wouldn't have the turntable powered or platter spinning, just letting the cantilever 'break in'.

MAMartins
I am exactly on the same boat. My 5 months n447 was bent and even being able to put in more or less on its place to play a gig it is tilted to one side so probably won’t last long. Juno sells tonar, I was wondering if anyone did an AB test with a original one to see how it performs

Pretty much all the Shure N447's I got over the years bent to one side fairly pretty rapidly - not sure if bad luck or part of the design/flaw. They still work for a long time like that though. Not sure if causes inner groove distortion or not though.

NinjaGaijin
I've heard that Shure, Jico and Tonar all need time to break in - would leaving the tonearm/stylus resting on a piece of vinyl for a night or two be a decent way to start the process? I realise actually playing the thing is best but is that an ok warm up? I wouldn't have the turntable powered or platter spinning, just letting the cantilever 'break in'.

The speedy way would be to have it play a runout groove on 45 for an hour or so, you can also let it sit on a record overnight, that's what I've always done. Just make sure it's a record with a clean runout as some have a tendency to jump onto the center label. You will notice that a new needle is quite wobbly when you cue/scratch a record back and forth, after this treatment it doesn't move that much anymore and sticks to the groove much better.

NinjaGaijin
Pretty much all the Shure N447's I got over the years bent to one side fairly pretty rapidly

I've had this only when the antiskate was set on anything else than zero (also on Ortofons). Ever since then I tend to leave the antiskate at zero for DJing. For listening you can set a different value but cueing/scratching with the antiskate set anything else than zero will bend the needle quickly.

HM-2
The speedy way would be to have it play a runout groove on 45 for an hour or so, you can also let it sit on a record overnight, that's what I've always done. Just make sure it's a record with a clean runout as some have a tendency to jump onto the center label. You will notice that a new needle is quite wobbly when you cue/scratch a record back and forth, after this treatment it doesn't move that much anymore and sticks to the groove much better.

I've had this only when the antiskate was set on anything else than zero (also on Ortofons). Ever since then I tend to leave the antiskate at zero for DJing. For listening you can set a different value but cueing/scratching with the antiskate set anything else than zero will bend the needle quickly.

Ah, I was a bit confused about the 'clean runout' guideline, I thought someone in another forum/thread was trying to say that the moving between grooves back and forth on a locked end groove is damaging to the cantilever, however I can't imagine much more damaging than scratching, back spins and back cueing.. an hour or so sounds a lot better than over night though leaving running xD sitting overnight sounds like the least risky way for paranoid folks like myself (I've just done every single thing wrong to vinyl you could imagine since the age of 4, so I am trying to 'unlearn' some of those 'techniques'!).

As for antiskate I agree 0 is important if DJing - I only use anti skate when playing a record for personal listening (no cueing etc) or for recording, and always make sure to default it to 0. I may have damaged my older styli using them in straight arm Vestax scratch tables also.. (PDX-A1S) as the cartridge alignment is like 17 degrees off what it should be or something.. I also used Concorde carts on this table and gave a bunch of records IGD that way (along with improperly set up carts on my 1200's later on).. not to mention playing records on a plastic 'Dick Smith' turntable when I was younger and between working DJ decks... so it definitely could be my abuse that lead to the Shure styli bends, but I will be super careful with my last pair to test out if they bend or not

I also have an old PDX 2000 and have no problems with bent styli at all on that one. Actually I always felt the straight arm gives less problems in that field and it sticks to the groove like nothing else. Apart from that it pretty much sucks xD
The Shures can definitely take a good beating. When I was DJing more frequently, they still lasted easily one year with frequent scratching.

HM-2
did you break in the carts and for how long?

I've been using the Shure M44G, with N44G replacements, for 12 years. I've always done the same thing before use; I let them ride in a run-out groove for 15 minutes before use. Never had a problem. That's what I did with the Tonar replacement. Maybe it needs more time? I have no idea. All I know is, sometimes the bass distorts.

I fixed my dilemma. I bought a pair of Ortofon Concorde MkII "Mix" cartridges. Why? No one knows what the future will hold, only time will tell. That being said, from what I can tell, Ortofon is investing in their future. They're transparent about their company and their products and they've been around for a long time. They're reputable. They've re-tooled and installed new production machinery in their plant at least twice in the past 3 years. That's a strong hint of investment in the future. In short, it appears they'll be around for a while to supply those of us who don't want to sell-off our records and equipment and call it quits. Unlike Tonar and all these mysterious off-brands that no one can quite figure out who they are. Screw that. Change costs. In this case, it seemed necessary. I'm holding my last four N44Gs tight. I'll miss these needles. Awesome product. Too bad the digital audio economy took another victim that didn't deserve to go.

Anyway... As you were.

Ortofon are definitely an option, I've just never been a big fan of the higher tracking forces. Also previous model would easily break the handle/ring for the handle, and only the newer models have replaceable bits. They used to be more expensive than the Shure also, when you could get an N447 for around $25-30 USD and Ortofon were more like $45-55 for replacements. I will eventually get a pair of OM's but I won't have that money for at least a year or two so in the mean time I will be trying out the Jico and Tonar.

I got my Tonar in the post yesterday, only 7 business days to receive through the post from UK to Australia - total cost was $73 AUD with international credit card fee, postage and GST. I've left them on some records with 2.7g tracking force and anti skate to match, resting near the start of the record with my decksaver dust covers on. I figure I'll give them 36-48 hours.

I also decided to try to bend my Shure N447's back in to place.. I was able to and didn't break them. But I worry they'll become weaker or just pop back to bent position easily. I used my fingers but might try using some tweezers next time (I have a few old sets sitting in my cupboard with the same issue). Will test them some time and see how they sound (at least as a comparison of worn Shure vs new Tonar/Jico etc).

I'd advise against "re-bending" the needles, especially by hand. Better off with a new one, it won't track as well as before and could potentially damage your records.

One lead I found through vinylengine however seems like another good option, however at 2.5-4g and with a 0.6 tip - https://www.ebay.com/itm/EMJ-Stylus-N44-7-for-SHURE-M44-7-PRESENT-Japan-made-New-Free-Shipping/123968201519
EMJ / Chuden Japan - it is the same cost for me as the Tonar for a pair, so I should have got these instead. I would have if I'd known! So I will try these next. Considering I will have purchased both a pair of Tonar, and a pair of EMJ for around the same price as a pair of Jico DJ Improved, it's not the worst experimentation. I have asked EMJ for specs such as frequency response, channel balance and output.

HM-2
I'd advise against "re-bending" the needles, especially by hand. Better off with a new one, it won't track as well as before and could potentially damage your records.

Well, I only have two NIB Shure N447 styli so I am weary of opening them.. saving them for the future for either a special occasion or possibly to sell. I'll probably end up using them in some years in the future. I managed to rebend both back and they seem to play fine still! I was very gentle and may have got lucky. I felt scared doing it and put off doing it for many years, lol. The styli have been barely used over around 4-5 years (maybe 150-200 hours max?) as I've been too busy promoting shows to practice or do mixes much (and use other carts for general playback). They've only been used primarily for a concert every few months for DJs performing without their own cartridges, so a few or several hours use at most every few months. Any way they still track fine and sound fine (possibly better now bent back in to shape) and ended up using them instead of the Tonar for my concert a couple of days ago. I never really cared about cleaning my styli much before so I also just got an Onzow Zerodust the other day to clean all my old styli and start to get in to the habit of keeping my replacements clean (had an AM brand bottle and brush which cracked and leaked after only a couple of uses years back). I have a cheapo ebay microscope I should try to use more often to look at my styli but feels like a bit too much work.

I tested out the Tonar - at first just playing some records I thought they were ok, a bit quieter than the Shure but seemed ok sound. I swapped between Tonar, Shure N447 and N44G (changing the tracking for the N44G) and found the sound was fairly similar between the styli. I was able to produce some skips while scratching but I am not the best at scratching so could have been being heavy handed - I still have to compare directly my potentially bad scratching between the Shure and Tonar styli.

However yesterday when I had some more time to test them, I noticed something terrible - both of the two I got have around 3dB louder right channel than the left. I have four M44 carts so swapped between these with both Shure and Tonar styli and the Tonar are both badly channel balanced. The Shure are not only louder but perfectly channel balanced.

So, a waste of money for playing real vinyl. Avoid the Tonar unless you plan to ONLY use for Control Vinyl.. in which case I'm sure a 3dB channel imbalance is fine. I did think of one weird 'creative' workaround for the Tonar: maybe it would be possible to reverse the L/R wiring of one of the headshells or carts which should then make that stylus have a 3dB boost on the left channel. That way one deck would be boosted to the right, and one to the left, so a bit of added simulated stereo effect (at least when blending two tracks at the same time - it would obviously sound weird having one speaker always quieter than the other during single tracks). I'm using old original Technics headshells with Audio Technica headshell leads.

Tonar never answered my email / website about their specifications either.

pulsemod
I fixed my dilemma.

Just wondering, if you have a stereo meter led on a mixer or something, could you maybe check if your Tonar also have a weird channel imbalance like mine did? I'm presuming it's not just a stylus here or there considering both the ones I received have the exact same issue.

Here's hoping the EMJ work and I don't have to fork out for Jico straight away - and if they had issues at least I would be able to return them a bit easier. I was thinking of returning the Tonar to Juno but I can potentially still use them for Serato sessions (might be good to have a DVS-only stylus anyway, saving the other 'actual vinyl playback' styli wear and tear for 'actual vinyl').

I didn't notice any channel imbalance. Everything sounded fine, except for the occasional bass distortion.

pulsemod
I didn't notice any channel imbalance. Everything sounded fine, except for the occasional bass distortion.

Sadly both my Tonar had the same channel imbalance.. very strange. I was able to get a refund from Juno though which was nice. I won't be trying the Tonar again after that experience.

After that I ordered a pair of Jico N-44-7 DJ Improved off Ebay (Japanese production model) for around $95 USD. Just testing them now, they sit firmly in the cartridges (Tonar sat pretty well too though), no channel imbalance, fairly loud output and good Serato control signal. I've left them breaking in sitting in the middle of a 12" with the weight on 4g and antiskate on 3 (the highest I can go on the 1200 mk2) - which is the setting I will probably use for 'regular listening' with anti-skate applied. I'm not at all good at scratching or turntablism but will see how they hold for cueing, backspins and some basic scratches soon. I only gave them a cursory listen and have not compared them to the original Shure N447 styli yet but will do so soon.

I decided to not go for the EMJ as the ebay seller 'EMJ' (direct?) said the 'maker did not provide specifications' so that made me worry about their quality, if I can't tell what output sensitivity, frequency range, channel balance they have etc. I LOVE these little washers they sell with them though.. any idea what size these washers would be?? I'm super keen to 'protect' my headshells/carts with some of these plastic washers, since I've already had one M447 cart get its side damaged from over-tightening (or aligning without loosening enough, damaging the plastic trench that the screw sits in on either side). Just need to find out what size they would be.. https://www.ebay.com/itm/EMJ-Stylus-N44-7-for-SHURE-M44-7-PRESENT-Japan-made-New-Free-Shipping/123968201519

I also managed to find some original mk2 Technics headshell NOS, on ebay and locally for around $30 USD if anyone is interested.

That's what kills me about the Jico replacements, they cost too much. They don't have North American distribution. If they could get them down to $60 a pair + usps shipping rate, I'd try them.

Yea, Tonar is junk. Avoid.

NinjaGaijin: go here https://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/m1200.htm, Under Headshells, look for HS Washers. In return, please consider naming your firstborn after me.

pulsemod
That's what kills me about the Jico replacements, they cost too much. They don't have North American distribution. If they could get them down to $60 a pair + usps shipping rate, I'd try them.

Yea, Tonar is junk. Avoid.

You can get some from LPgear aka Jicocanada https://jicocanada.com/collections/shure-dj-styli for a bit cheaper in North America, but yeah still very pricey. Sadly it's the only real option for Shure carts now I am thinking..

arteom
NinjaGaijin: go here https://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/m1200.htm, Under Headshells, look for HS Washers. In return, please consider naming your firstborn after me.

Arteom, need a partner for that.. I was able to find some of these o-rings through Ortofon ( https://www.ortofon.com/rubber-rings-for-concorde-pair-p-283 ) however I am looking for more headshell o-rings, was going to try the Jelco next since some people on Ebay charging a fortune for generic ones.

But unfortunately this is not what I was looking for.. the washers are tiny little things that sit on the screws that sit between cartridge and headshell - https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/EBsAAOSwVZ1cZPEn/s-l1600.jpg the clear plastic washers that attached to the screws

ah gotcha, never bothered with those myself.

edit: like these? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nylon-Washers-x-10-For-Headshell-Screws-Universal-Universal-Unbranded-Generic/352000698136?hash=item51f4e06718:g:ylwAAOxy2O1SXvp6

arteom
ah gotcha, never bothered with those myself.

edit: like these? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nylon-Washers-x-10-For-Headshell-Screws-Universal-Universal-Unbranded-Generic/352000698136?hash=item51f4e06718:g:ylwAAOxy2O1SXvp6

Yep those are the ones - they come thick or thin, flat or rounded.. many options and not sure what is best (guessing thinner is better). Sadly in Australia with postage that would work out to $10+ AUD for those 10, and I only need a few. There are a couple of ebayers for $10-20 including postage for a set.

Managed to get some through Decibel hifi, they stock Jelco ones now - https://www.decibelhifi.com.au/jelco-headshell-o-ring-3-pack 3x for $5 with free postage in Australia

Also yeah I never used plastic washers myself, however I now have damage to my 447 and 44G cartridges from where the washer and nut (or if screwed from upside down, the screw itself) have compressed into the rounded plastic side bits that 'hold/retain' the screws. I put the washers and nuts at the bottom, otherwise I find if the head of the screw is at the bottom, it can dislodge out the sides of the plastic M447/G casing. Was thinking of more ways to help prevent this, however I guess the plastic isn't going to stop the metal and nut compressing the plastic and/or nylon underneath lol. Might take a photo soon.

Also a small update, I have found a LOT of fake Technics M3D headshells lately pretending to be OEM/Panasonic/genuine.. it's crazy how much new, NOS and used Technics headshells are going for now. I am 'lucky' I spent $80 AUD on two counterfeit at a local shop.. so they aren't going to have much excuse not to give me my money back (illegal in Australia to sell counterfeit goods).

edit edit: found those nylon screws/washers/nuts too https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NON-MAGNETIC-NYLON-Mounting-Screw-M2-Kit-For-Turntable-Cartridge-Headshell/263795413006 - mainly interested in the washers but was considering trying to use the nylon for my M97xE and see if I can fit them securely / without breaking.. if they are strong enough I wouldn't mind perhaps using in my DJ carts too (but I doubt they would be as durable..)

Hi. Could someone do a comparison between Jico/Tonar styli and the real Shure m44-7 / m44g? Would be awesome. Also audio samples would be appreciated.

Btw. Has someone tried the Jico / Tonar stanton 500 replacements? How do they compare to the original one? Thanks again for the answers. (And sorry for posting to a shure thread about this, but someone mentioned the stanton replacements in this thread)

Hopefully relighting this fire will do just good. I am playing minimal/techno/occasionally house music and use m44g at 2,5. To have a future replacement, I would like to get a Jico needle. What would your recommendation be? I read this topic from the beginning but still cannot get a clear picture.. although plenty of info. is at hand. Thanks in advance!

Jico's reply:


Thanks for ing JICO.
We have no probable dispatching to Romania and shipping cost is USD 27.00 but we are not responsible for any import/customs taxes that your country might charge against.

Back to stylus on M-44G.
We can introduce you to this link below for some stylus that is compatible to your cartridge.

https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n44g/
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n-44g-dj-improved/
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n-44g-dj-improved-two-piece/
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n-44g-club-improved/
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n-44g-club-improved-two-piece/
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n44-kurogaki/


From top to bottom :
N-44G, this is what we call the normal stylus with conical tip
N-44G DJ IMPROVED is designed for DJ usage with conical tip
N-44G DJ IMPROVED two piece comes with 2pcs
N-44G CLUB IMPROVED is for DJ and it glows in dark
N-44G CLUB IMPROVED two piece comes with 2pcs
N-44 KUROGAKI is our custom designed by our artisan Kotaro Morita using wooden cantilever and suit best with classical music, jazz, and romantic music.

So if you are going to use for bedrooms or outside terraces, quite bars, I would suggest Kurogaki for some romantic night but maybe N-44G CLUB improved for techno-trip-hop/house music in somewhat dark night club.

Thanks and enjoy shopping,

◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇
cid:[email protected]日本精機宝石工業株式会社
NIPPON PRECISION JEWEL INDUSTRY CO., LTD.
Tokyo Branch
International Sales Representative
Tsutsui Shirokanedai Bld. 3F
4-9-23 Shirokanedai, Minato-ku, Tokyo, 108-0071 JAPAN
URL：http://www.jico.co.jp
JICO Web Shop：https://www.jico-stylus.com/
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送信元: JICO STYLUS <[email protected]> の代理)
Reply-To: <[email protected]>
日付: 2020年6月24日 水曜日 21:46
宛先: <[email protected]>
件名: JICO Store Site Message
My Message:

Hello Jico Crew,

Allow me to share my plan with you. I'd like to purchase replacement needles (2) for Shure m44g. They will be used for playing in environments such as: bedrooms, outside terraces, bars. As for the style of music, this will shift between minimal/minimal-techno/trip-hop(rare)/house(occasionally).
Giving these circumstances, what do you think, which Jico needle would go best and which settings would be optimal for it? Please note that scratching happens rarely and that smooth seemeless, if possible, long track transitions are pursued. If I will find the ones, delivery should go to Romania, Bucharest, which I hope Jico can do. When recommending, please share the total price as well (needles, ed shipping, other possibly occurring costs.
Your attention and help are highly appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

*******

Question is: why not go for the standard n44g which offers the same weight as Shure's m44g? Or is n44g not at all suited for dj mixing. The experience with Shure m44g so far at 2,5 did not involve needle jumping when backcueing. And this Kurogaki.. does anyone know more about it? Tracking force perhaps?

[quote=ornid][/quote]

Hey dude, recently i bought two of jico club improved n44g and it works perfectly, i Could say that is really similar to shure's, i can not see big difference, overed my expectatives

Noted Gio, thanks for the contribution.

Right so I just realised https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n-44g-dj-improved/ vs. https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n44g/ no protection system for the former which makes a difference when travelling just with the cartridge or many times with the entire system.

When asked why the price difference, Jico replies "The difference between N-44G and N-44G DJ IMPROVED is in its tracking force and has needle protection cover."

Page 2 (the post before last) https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/jico-n447-output-voltage-same-as-shure-stylus.830906/page-2 dunno how reliable this is ... what could he mean by "more depth" and can that be possible, less output even though the track force is higher? Will the generic Jico's (link above) volume be stronger/louder than Club's version?
I am doing livestreams more often and a strong still balanced output is important.
And what's with the cantilever? Did anyone adjust when replacing Shure M44g with Jico, either generic, or club? Thanks,

gaborincivil
Right so I just realised https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n-44g-dj-improved/ vs. https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n44g/ no protection system for the former which makes a difference when travelling just with the cartridge or many times with the entire system.

When asked why the price difference, Jico replies "The difference between N-44G and N-44G DJ IMPROVED is in its tracking force and has needle protection cover."

Page 2 (the post before last) https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/jico-n447-output-voltage-same-as-shure-stylus.830906/page-2 dunno how reliable this is ... what could he mean by "more depth" and can that be possible, less output even though the track force is higher? Will the generic Jico's (link above) volume be stronger/louder than Club's version?
I am doing livestreams more often and a strong still balanced output is important.
And what's with the cantilever? Did anyone adjust when replacing Shure M44g with Jico, either generic, or club? Thanks,

Yes 'improved' is good for the guard. 'Club' is just glow in the dark - I think this is tacky.
As for jico N44G - it is EXACTLY the same specs as Jico N447, just black body colour.
So you WILL be disappointed if you expect performance and sound of Shure N44G.

Get whatever is cheaper, of Jico N44G DJ Improved or Jico N447 DJ Improved.
I am not sure if also they have N44G like the N447 'vanilla', the ones that track at 1.5-3g.. people have issues mixing with these so that is why there is the 'DJ' model which tracks at high 3-4.5g tracking force. I got Jico DJ Improved and it works fine but it is not as loud as Shure N447, does not track as well (it's pretty good though) and doesn't sound the same.
I thought about getting Jico N447 vanilla (1.5-3g tracking) originally but they stopped selling it at my local DJ store, since they got complaints about how it didn't track right compared to Shure N447 at 1.5-3g tracking. So for DJs backcue etc, you 'need' the DJ/club models with higher tracking force.

To clarify, there is NO difference in specs apparently between the 7 and G models by Jico - just the colour of the stylus body. That's what Jico told me.

As for the wood body version, that sounds like a ripoff for audiophiles - club DJs don't need wood bodies. You can get wood bodies off ebay though if you want to replace/upgrade the body of the Shure M44G/M447 cartridge. "**Please be very cautious upon handling this product as it is extremely fragile compared to other materials such as Aluminum, which is generally used for cantilever**" - too fragile for DJing.

After the cost is now higher for me to get DJ Improved Jico stylus to Australia, I think I will probably end up buying Ortofon Concorde DJ mk2 pair some time when clubs get re-opened.

Hey NinjaGaijin, thank you really for this detailed reply. The glow is for sure not something I'd be getting, so that's figured out.

''I am not sure if also they have N44G like the N447 'vanilla','' - I will ask them.

''As for jico N44G - it is EXACTLY the same specs as Jico N447, just black body colour.''- this is the interesting part, wouldn't that mean that getting Jico N44-G would bring me close to Shure M44G? Another interesting discovery is:

https://www.turntablelab.com/products/jico-n-44g-improved-replacement-stylus-for-shure-m44g-192-44g-imp
https://lptunes.com/products/jico-replacement-shure-n-44g-improved-stylus
- mounted protection and low tracking force...

I asked JICO whether these are available.

''I got Jico DJ Improved and it works fine but it is not as loud as Shure N447'' - with this I was confronted when purchasing Shure M44G over Shure M44-7. I got back then the idea that M44G will have less output volume and since M44-7 was recommended for hip-hop, I went for the G on of the music styles I was intending to play (minimal/minimal-techno/house)

I am curious what Jico's answer will be to whether N44-G DJ improved puts out more volume on of it's higher tracking force.

Yes, I agreed with you, the woody thing is something else : )

Cantilever question!

Do you happen to know whether cantilever modifications are required when switching between Shure and Jico?

If JIco N44-G club DJ improved would track well at 3.5g then I would be raising the weight by 1.0g. Currently I have 2.5g set.

Well NinjaGaijin I hope clubs will get back soon and that you will be happy with Ortofon that is, if JICO doesn't make things cheaper for Australia : )

°°°

Here's where I stand.

If these exist, https://www.turntablelab.com/products/jico-n-44g-improved-replacement-stylus-for-shure-m44g-192-44g-imp ; https://lptunes.com/products/jico-replacement-shure-n-44g-improved-stylus , I might be interested in getting one, as it seems to be the closest match to Shure's M44G.

If those models are no longer produced, or erroneously marketed, then I will be one step closer to JICO N44-G DJ improved.

Anybody else made the switch Shure M44G with Jico N44G?

gaborincivil
I am curious what Jico's answer will be to whether N44-G DJ improved puts out more volume on of it's higher tracking force.

The output has nothing to do with the tracking force.
When used with the same coils the output relates to the strength of the magnet in the stylus assembly.
Shure specs:

N44G output 6.2mV
N44-7 output 9.5mV

N44-7 has a stronger (and bigger and heavier) magnet than the N44G
No idea how the Jico versions compare as they do not appear to publish this spec.

Thanks chiz! Can put this one aside then. Volume matter solved.

Anybody else willing to share some JICO N44-G / N44-G DJ improved experiences?

I read a few posts on tracking force and apart from some very in-depth presentations; with bibliography, footnotes and so on- many tend to advise sticking to the manufacturer's tracking force recommendation because it will bring in return the less possible wear. There's math involved as well, algorithms, which after one read I cannot see myself capable of applying, but to sum it up, there are ways to calculate the difference in wear between stylus running at 2,5g against the vinyl, 3,5g, 4,5g and so on. What do you think, can record wear be that much harsher when stepping up 1,0g in tracking force, let's say 3,5g from 2,5g?

Also, if anyone knows whether the cantilever requires adjustments when going back-and-forth Shure-Jico needles, would be highly valued.

And this https://www.turntablelab.com/products/jico-n-44g-improved-replacement-stylus-for-shure-m44g-192-44g-imp is any of you using it? So far I was not able to match it on JICO's website.

Right so I purchased https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n-44g-dj-improved/

JICO advised no cantilever modifications will be needed.
I will give it a go at 3,5g first, see how it performs. Once something noteworthy will emerge, I'll let you all know.
Thanks again for helping out.

Hi All! I replaced some old original M44-7 styli with Jico replacements and I've had a terrible time with them so far. They skip like crazy when cueing or back cueing, and require a lot of tracking force to get good consistent sound quality.

I got a protractor to set the alignment, got a level, left the needles in the groove overnight, have been trying to break them in playing record after record, but the tracking has only improved a little bit. Is it possible they just need a ton of breaking in? Could I have gotten a bad batch? I ordered from Jico Canada if it makes any difference.

I thought it might be my tone arm so I tried my ancient pair of Whitelabels and they track just fine. I like the sound of the M44-7 but I don't know how long I should keep trying to break them in before I give up.

euthlogo, thanks for posting.

My order with JICO Japan involves N44G, I don't know whether what you are describing might be something anybody else experienced. Guys?

The N44G DJ IMPROVED JICO styluses I ordered from JICO Japan arrived. Installing them was plug-and-play. No cantilever adjustments. I am getting quite an extra punch of volume output. The with the vinyl is sturdy, however, I rarely scratch, usually back-cue. As for the sound, it will require taking the trip to learn more about it. I will prepare a post for a later time. The tracking force is set to the minimum recommended 3,5 g. Out of curiosity, I tried out 3 and 2,5 g, and would say there isn't much difference. Volume stays strong. Back-cueing works too. What I am a bit afraid of is not to jeopardise the record by setting this force too low, as I read this could do more damage than an extra 1.0g of tracking force added (I moved upward from 2,5g SHURE M44G to 3,5g JICO N44G DJ IMPROVED).

If anybody else has experience with JICO N44G DJ IMPROVED, it would be great to hear about it.

[quote=ornid][/quote]

So that confirms right there that the volume mV is different to Shure. Definitely not 'matched to Shure' specs. So you didn't end up trying the Turntable Labs 0.75-1.25g tracking version? That *may* be an attempt to match the Shure specs but I really wouldn't be sure unless emailing Jico about it. I wish they published their specs.

Having tracking too high or too low is bad. 3.5g tracking with a cart designed for it, will not be a big difference. Obviously at a higher tracking force there WILL be more record wear than a cart that tracks well at a lower force. But sadly without Shure around we must put up with this (or find other carts, and good luck finding anything that tracks well at low force these days in a new product).

Thanks for adding your info - would be interested to hear how they sound. Ideally record a sample 20-30 seconds intro of a track with both cartridges (original and Jico) and post the wav/flac to hear/analyse - it should be obvious they will not be the same then

I may try to find time to do the same with my Jico N447 DJ improved some time vs Shure N447 also. I have to do a few other recording tests first though and I really don't enjoy all the switching components lol. So could be a little while xD

If anyone is interested in checking out Ortofon's sounds, Mojaxx did a decent comparison series of recording here (the only issue is only one type of track, and not cleaned properly between plays I presume, but a good 'quick test'): https://soundcloud.com/-660295751

i have just found a boxed spare N44-7. I have replaced them with ortofons now so don't need it any more if anyone is interested let me know.

Jico do spec their needles which are usually matched with the original
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n44-7/

NinjaGaijin
Definitely not 'matched to Shure' specs

He had bought the "DJ improved" N44-G, so obviously it's not the same as the OG spec. the regular N44-G knockoff will match them.

I recently need to find shure replacements and initially tried the Tonar version of the G. Overall disappointing comparing to the Shure N44-G in a side by side test.

I next bought the DJ improved 'N' pair directly from Jico. More money but these more closely copy the Shure originals. I made the mistake of setting up exactly as the Shure's and wasn't impressed- they were not tracking and a bit noisy.

however once i had read the specs and the advice on Jico site i moved up the tracking weight to 4g (measured this with a balance) the performance was so much better and im a happy customer. they will also benefit for some running in - stick on a locked groove overnight.

in summary, dont bother with the cheaper Tonar - Jico models are an excellent alternative to the Shure originals

thanks NinjaGaijin

I asked JICO about these models like the one available at Turntable Labs and what about but their employee oversaw the question. I assume you are right, transparency goes some ways only. I might order that one too, this way I will know in the future what to go for. The boxes are for sure different.

After leaving the N44G DJ IMPROVED overnight on that void between 2 tracks, I played some music with it. Minimal techno house tracks went well, however, the needle skipped a couple of beats repeatedly when meeting a VG+ afro electro record. The record was not touched or anything, table not moved, so it simply jumped on its own. I then replayed that with 4g tracking and the skipping was gone. In both cases I had to go incredibly low with the gain and take 1/4 of the bass otherwise audible distortion was present.

°°°

Here’s a break-beat kind of track I recoded once with SHURE M44G, then JICO N44G DJ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpoJeqkfglU
from 20.44 SHURE m44G

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAQohC9Oma4&feature=youtu.be
from 52.44 JICO N44G only has 4-5 hrs playtime ; tracking force 3,5g, GAIN almost minimum but still as you might hear, the output is kinda strong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EwRm8__hs0
from 3.30 another version of the same track recorded by another

fyi all other tracks you can listen too as well, one mix was recorded with SHURE, the other with JICO

.wav, I will record something soon too

°°°
Yes, switching components isn’t that convenient..

Really nice what Mojaxx did there, thanks for sharing. 1.20 is my preferred comparison spot so far, m447 really delivers an amazing bass.. and QBERT sounds quite balanced.

HM-2
Jico do spec their needles which are usually matched with the original
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n44-7/

NinjaGaijinDefinitely not 'matched to Shure' specs
He had bought the "DJ improved" N44-G, so obviously it's not the same as the OG spec. the regular N44-G knockoff will match them.

You're saying I ought to have gone for the OG from JICO to get closer to SHURE M44g? Thanks,

gaborincivil
HM-2Jico do spec their needles which are usually matched with the original
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n44-7/

NinjaGaijinDefinitely not 'matched to Shure' specs
He had bought the "DJ improved" N44-G, so obviously it's not the same as the OG spec. the regular N44-G knockoff will match them.

You're saying I ought to have gone for the OG from JICO to get closer to SHURE M44g? Thanks,

Well, here is my thinking. They released more 'authentic' versions, which I call the 'vanilla'. The N447 tracks at 1.5-3, and the N44G at 0.75-1.5 or whatever it is. But, they made 'DJ' variant with a higher tracking force, presumably, because of the reports I read/saw/heard about poor tracking for back-cueing and scratching (at least for the N447 vanilla). Maybe if you were being very gentle with the vinyl and mostly working the pitch fader, it would be fine. We really need someone to test the N44G vanilla version though and report back.

But as for the N44G DJ and N447 DJ, apparently they are exactly the same but with different coloured body. According to the email I got from Jico Japan.

Also I'm really sorry to hear you had skipping and issues with volume and EQ.. I think that this shouldn't be an issue if you turn your speakers down - ideally they shouldn't be aimed at the styli, and also you might want to consider taking the turntables out of the coffins and try to isolate them a bit. But agreed, we didn't have these troubles with N44G/N447 Shure... it's sad that no one can do what Shure did apparently.

humanagainchris
i have just found a boxed spare N44-7. I have replaced them with ortofons now so don't need it any more if anyone is interested let me know.

Many people are paying high prices on ebay even for used styli.. if you want to sell, it's crazy town prices. I actually knew in March of a store still selling the M447 cartridges (that come with a stylus) for less than what styli were going for on ebay. But luckily I didn't 'invest' in a bunch to resell or horde since it's really not a good time to sell anything at the moment.

GENRE
in summary, dont bother with the cheaper Tonar - Jico models are an excellent alternative to the Shure originals

Agree, Tonar was horrible.. my N447 Tonar (no 267) had horrible channel balance and bad tracking.
Tonar are only good for timecode, and even then, they track bad.. Jico are fine for control vinyl at least. But for actual vinyl mixing, nothing beats the Shure still I think. It's been a sad couple of years without easy access to them..

[quote=NinjaGaijin]ornid HM-2Jico do spec their needles which are usually matched with the original
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n44-7/

NinjaGaijinDefinitely not 'matched to Shure' specs
He had bought the "DJ improved" N44-G, so obviously it's not the same as the OG spec. the regular N44-G knockoff will match them.

You're saying I ought to have gone for the OG from JICO to get closer to SHURE M44g? Thanks,

Well, here is my thinking. They released more 'authentic' versions, which I call the 'vanilla'. The N447 tracks at 1.5-3, and the N44G at 0.75-1.5 or whatever it is. But, they made 'DJ' variant with a higher tracking force, presumably, because of the reports I read/saw/heard about poor tracking for back-cueing and scratching (at least for the N447 vanilla). Maybe if you were being very gentle with the vinyl and mostly working the pitch fader, it would be fine. We really need someone to test the N44G vanilla version though and report back.

But as for the N44G DJ and N447 DJ, apparently they are exactly the same but with different coloured body. According to the email I got from Jico Japan.

Also I'm really sorry to hear you had skipping and issues with volume and EQ.. I think that this shouldn't be an issue if you turn your speakers down - ideally they shouldn't be aimed at the styli, and also you might want to consider taking the turntables out of the coffins and try to isolate them a bit. But agreed, we didn't have these troubles with N44G/N447 Shure... it's sad that no one can do what Shure did apparently.

Thanks for the tips. I will start by working on the volume, yes, what you see runs via sound card TASCAM US2x2 knobs of which help me work the volume when recording. With SHURE M44g both L/R knobs where in the middle 5 minutes away, if we take the entire circle to be a clock, from the red zone. I will now try going down to :45 especially since my gain on that afroelektro track was -15dB and even so it was too loud. The needle skip on 1 track happened rather peculiar at 3,5g tracking force. I had to repeat the process to understand. It kind of occurred when I was adjusting the pitch. I then tapped the turntable a bit with my finger to see it jumping. And all this while fast back-cueing did not raise any issues. This did not happen again once the tracking force was raised to 4g.

About the n44G vanilla, are there any links still with it somewhere?

back with some different news:

here's a recording I did after tweaking the volume

https://soundcloud.com/ornid/jico-n44g-dj-improved

The INs on the sound card are at minimum, mixer gain 8'o clock, tracking went up to 4,5 g after noticing that any lower and a slight bump on the turntable would cause a skip. The head shell is standard AT HS10, maybe that could play a part in the trouble? Vinyl is VG+ ... I played a bit with the controls to see whether any distortion or nasty sounds pop-up.

It does sound awfully quiet compared to https://soundcloud.com/-660295751 these recordings for e.g. .... what'u guys think?
BTW sound card is TASCAM US 2x2 , mixer : ECLER NUO 2.0

Thing is, if I turn the INs from the sound card louder, there will be songs which would need more than -15dB gain adjustments to stay out of yellow/red or distortion and there will not be enough room for that because -15dB is maximum this mixer can take. The master I did not move, it's at 12'o clock, should I maybe play with that? I wouldn't want to keep the faders at 8 out of 10 or something... that's kind of inconvenient, I mean one can accidentally bump one up and boom.

It's definitely an improvement only it's a bit quiet I'd say. It's an improvement because yesterday I recorded mostly distortions of tracks : ))

Help much appreciated, thanks in advance!

one more recording, adjusted settings, .wav this time@
https://soundcloud.com/ornid/jico-n44g-dj-improved-take2

gaborincivil
Jico do spec their needles which are usually matched with the original

Not real specs - what about channel seperation, output, frequency range, load etc? If there is that info there please let me know. Here is a proper spec page, from Shure for M447: https://www.shure.eu/en-EU/products/dj-phono/m44-7
SPECS
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
HIDE
Weight:6 g
Phono height:15
Frequency Range:20 Hz – 20 kHz
Cartridge type:Cartridge
Uses:Scratching
FURTHER TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
HIDE
Further Specs:
Tone Arm Mount: 1/2" standard mount
Cartridge Type: MM
Output Voltage: 9,5 mV
Recommended Load: 47 kΩ; 450 pf
Tracking Force Range: 1,5 - 3 g
(Stylus) Cantilever:
Shure Type S
Heat-treated aluminum alloy / tubular
1,6 mil wall thickness / 34,5 mil diameter
Diamond Stylus Tip:
Sperical 0,7 mil

Compliance: 20
Frequency Response: 20 Hz - 17 kHz
Stereo Channel Balance: 2 dB
Channel Separation (at 1kHz): 20 dB
Net Weight: 6,7 g
Height: 15,9 mm
Replacement Needles:
N44-7

As for the recordings and skipping that is sad to hear - you can always try ing Jico about it - https://www.jico-stylus.com/faq/ although they don't seem super helpful.

As for the 'vanilla' N44G, here it is for sale from Japan direct, $41 USD + postage. https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n44g

LP Gear seems to have some N44G available still (for twice the cost of Jico) - you may be able to find cheaper on ebay or locally some stores with remaining stock potentially, as it was not as popular as the N447
https://www.lpgear.com/product/SHN0445.html

As for distortion issues, are you using the RECORD output of your mixer, or BOOTH/MIX/MASTER output? Does your sound card have option to choose either 'instrument/consumer line' or '+4db line' or 'mic' level? Make sure it is either +4db line (for master output of mixer) or 'instrument/consumer line (-10dB line)' for record output.

Did you record before the stylus changes, without issues? Or are you new to recording? I don't think recording with Shure vs recording with Jico should produce all these new issues with volume changes.

I think it would be best if you could try to do some sort of video potentially for youtube, showing a skip or something - I will listen to audio soon. It's a pity we have little options for the Shure replacements :( there is a cheap ebay company 'EMJ' selling also, but I don't trust them after wasting money on Tonar..

I'm just glad I have a couple of N447 NOS sealed in my cupboard still, and a couple of barely used N44G. I don't want to use them, rather either save them for a 'special occasion' like a fancy bottle of alcohol, or for an inheritor to get some money from to pay off ma funeral one day lol. Or can use the $$ to pay for a 'final pressing' :) https://www.andvinyly.com/

NinjaGaijin thanks for the new reply and provided info.

About the skipping, it only occurred when I tapped the turntable, harder, with my finger, sort of like giving it a bump. Before setting the tracking force to 4,5g I was experiencing skipping when back-cueing. Now, with 4,5g back-cueing works fine.

The vanilla n44G is exactly the one I wanted to buy in the first place, only it did not have protection, so I asked JICO staff whether the DJ is any different. The answer I got was that the only difference between the two is that DJ has protection, whereas vanilla does not.

LP Gear sells 2 for that price, or just one? How come they still have SHUREs, last of the last kind of thing, or?

Interesting fact: people seem to be reviewing n447 on the JICO website but nobody n44G...

Here’s how my setup runs:
main 1-2 mixer in sound card, instrument, checked, so no record output. The more volume I give to the instrument, the louder my output is. But if I give it too much and I don't mean reaching red, then the gain -15dB isn't anymore sufficient to prevent some tracks from distorting. Playing with the fader in the middle isn't something I am looking forward to :)

I did 3 recordings, check them out here https://soundcloud.com/ornid
- first 3 named Afrodisiac.

The first 2 are with JICO at different tracking forces, the last is with m44G at 2,5g. Details can be also found in the description of each file.

Cheers,

Damn, well they messed up again, clearly the difference is between the DJ and vanilla with different tracking forces! I wish Jico were clearer..ie put specs on webpages lol.

LP Gear I am not sure if they do still have Shure, they may, some places still have some in stock. But the prices are going crazy. The place I found with stock earlier in the year is out now.

So you are recording into instrument input of sound card? That would be why - instrument is one of lowest signals, along with microphone and turntable tonearm signals. If want to 'fix' the issue you can get an attenuator to reduce gain, it will need to be -20dB or possibly as much as -40dB - I forget exactly. You need to check the manual of soundcard, to see what it its input volume is, and the output level of your mixer output, and try to figure out difference. It seems like -20dB should work https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/instruments-and-amps/293952-line-instrument-input-level-attenuation.html

(but make sure you are doing instrument input and not mic input as they are different levels) A better article about audio gain levels: https://recordmixandmaster.com/2010-02-mic-line-and-instrument-level-whats-the-difference

NinjaGaijin
clearly the difference is between the DJ and vanilla with different tracking forces! I wish Jico were clearer..ie put specs on webpages lol.

They do provide tracking force specs for these models on their website:

0.75 – 1.5 g
N-44G
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n44g/

1.5 – 3.0 g
N-44-7
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n44-7/

3.5 – 4.5 g
N-44G / DJ IMPROVED
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n-44g-dj-improved/
N-44G / CLUB IMPROVED
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n-44g-club-improved/
N-44-7 / DJ IMPROVED
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n-44-7-dj-improved/
N-44-7 / CLUB IMPROVED
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n-44-7-club-improved/

For models where they don't specify tracking force I would guess it is the same as the original but this could hopefully be confirmed via email.

NinjaGaijin
So you are recording into instrument input of sound card?

Looks like this unit s balanced line input via TRS:
https://tascam.com/us/product/us-2x2/spec

LINE IN
Connector 1/4" (6.3mm) TRS-jack (T: HOT, R: COLD, S: GND), BALANCED
(when set to "MIC/LINE" at MIC/LINE.INST switch)

[quote=chiz][/quote]

Was after all the other specs, apart from just recommended VTF

Late to the conversation here, but just got the N-44G CLUB IMPROVED Jico. I bought two, two-pair boxes (4 styli total). I am afraid that I wish I hadn't though, because so far I'm not impressed with them. They sound OK - good enough I guess, and just as loud as shures - but here is how they don't stack up compared to Shure:

* the very highest frequencies don't have the same crispness as the original Shures
* the mids and basses are muddier sounding, with less clarity and definition
* they are noticeably stiffer feeling than Shure (can't scratch reliably with them, they jump majorly)
* being stiffer, and jumping more, you need more weight, and and test scratching with them heavier, they seem to burn/wear the record noticeably faster

Basically what others have said.

I'm absolutely thankful that Jico has stepped up to the plate to cover where Shure has lamely abandoned everyone, but the bottom line is that it's not the same game, at all. Maybe they are ok for the casual listener, but for me these are OK for beatmixing only, where clean sound quality isn't a must-have. I hate saying that, but that's my take. And I'm not a picky audiophile when it comes to my sound quality, and it was noticeable to me. Truth be told, I'm almost scared to use them, feeling how stiff they are and how (so far) they seem to gouge into the vinyl.

Context: I'm a club DJ who does some scratching here and there (no crazy routines, and there's no way the Jicos could handle a real scratch DJ's use).

Thanks for that report! Seems to confirm that the 447 and 44G models with higher tracking force are identical.
https://i.imgur.com/A3mTYNQ.png

"Thank you for ing JICO.
Regarding your inquiry,

>> your Jico N44-7 (1.5-3g tracking force) has 9.5mV output and 20kHz to 17kHz frequency range.
Is this correct?

(image ed)
Difference between 44-7D and 44G DJ is nob color. ( same tracking force )

We hope this helps,
◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇◇
NIPPON PRECISION JEWEL INDUSTRY CO., LTD
Hiromi Oiwa"

Someone should ask them about the specifications for the 0.75-1.5g tracking N44G stylus to see if it is anything similar to the Shure version - because if you are buying a DJ/DJ Improved/Club model N44G (the 3.5-4.5g tracking ones) from Jico it seems like it is just a black coloured N447 (3.5-4.5g version), according to the email above.

Also inquiring about the blue and red 'skratch' model: https://plantrecords.official.ec/items/22535493
"JICO offers two types of stylus with the same tracking force as the genuine SHURE and those with heavier tracking force.
If you are using SHURE's genuine products and it seems like no problem, you may use former one. If you would like to prevent a needle from jumping, you may try latter one. The product you are referring to is for domestic customer and its current model. ( not old design ) "

I wanted to add my experience about these JICO DJ IMPROVED stylus. I received 2x of them via amazon. After 2 weeks of using them everyday ( about 1.5 to 2 hours a day, heavy scratching and general listening) they still jump all over the place. My old Shures died and I needed a replacement and hoped these would work out.

I was hoping they just needed to be broken in but they still aren't tracking very well when back cueing, after 2 weeks of use.

Just a historical bump for internet posterity.

I’m still using the Ortofon Concorde MkII "Mix" cartridges I bought last year. Absolutely satisfied.

pulsemod
Just a historical bump for internet posterity.

I’m still using the Ortofon Concorde MkII "Mix" cartridges I bought last year. Absolutely satisfied.

Yep - Ortofon, with their and newly produced matched styli and carts are sadly the way to go now :(
I'm still saving my last two unopened N447's. I use my Jico ok with basic Serato mixing and real vinyl but will be upgrading to some Ortofon when I can afford.

I bought one of the n44-7 replacements earlier this year (I don't do any scratching and mix mostly by riding the pitch). I'm not in love. Sound quality wise I actually think they sound as good as my old shure needles, the clarity is impressive and the bass is still heavy like the originals were known for . Unfortunately, though, I am finding that they don't track as well. I've tried upping the weight to compensate (3.5 right now) and it's almost there but still occasionally skips when cueing, and I'm worried about burning out my vinyl tracking so heavy.. I'll probably give the dj improved version a shot, if I can find a shop near me that can get them.

I'm also curious if anyone has taken a look at the announcement on the jico website? it appears they are trying to develop their own cartridges based on the old shures to go along with the replacement needles. I doubt they will be as excellent as the original, but if they can get anywhere close this would be huge.

https://www.jico-stylus.com/jico-press-release/

tjtimusk
I bought one of the n44-7 replacements earlier this year

Are you sure you didn't get the 3.5-4.5g (or is it 3-4g) tracking 'DJ' model already? Definitely the 1.5-3g model? I was considering those at first as the tracking force matched the Shures, but realised that they made those DJ versions for a reason.. they don't track well :( the DJ ones don't track well either, since you need to do 3.5-4g to get them to not fly around.
And as for their new carts, the carts aren't going to make their styli track any better. Maybe some sonic improvement but I doubt it, the Shure M447/M44G cart (they are identical apart from label) is a pretty decent cart.
There is still M44G cart stock around I'm sure, NOS.. even 2nd hand might be cheaper than the Jico new.
But I think it's time to start looking at alternatives for the Shure carts. Sadly Ortofon seem to be the only 'real' option now for new stock and decent prices. I have a pair of Concorde DJ mk2 on my wishlist for a while now. Saves messing around with headshells and tonearm wires by going Concorde, and the Concorde sounded better to me from Mojaxx's testing on soundcloud. But that's pretty subjective.

NinjaGaijin
Are you sure you didn't get the 3.5-4.5g (or is it 3-4g) tracking 'DJ' model already? Definitely the 1.5-3g model? I was considering those at first as the tracking force matched the Shures, but realised that they made those DJ versions for a reason..

Yeah, the packaging didn't say improved or club on it and it has the asymmetrical design without the guard.I never had this issue with my OEM styli, but I may try messing with some tonearm settings to see if I can make it work at only 3 grams. I'm not really scratching at all, and rarely every do spin downs. It's almost entirely just cueing, and I've it's only really a problem with some records (particularly the heavier 180g ones) which I find kind of odd.

The annoying this about all this is that JICO make so many different versions of these needles that it's hard to see a consensus. I've heard a lot of rave reviews about jico, and a few mixed like mine. I can only assume the people who are 100% satisfied are the ones who bought the Lumino/Dj improved/Club. I am hopeful that if they are stepping into the cartridge game they will start to hone their products more for the dj market. Time will tell.

tjtimusk
it's hard to see a consensus. I've heard a lot of rave reviews about jico, and a few mixed like mine.

You have to look for convergence when it comes to online product information. "The market" is better able to tell what's going on and form consensus during/in convergence. If you see random/scattered opinion about a product, that means data lines are impossible to plot. In other words, "the market" can't tell what's going on, it's undecided. That means the product is probably mediocre.

FWIW, at this point, I think Jico is the ladder.

news! Ortofon 'VNL' cartridge. Now I must consider Concorde vs VNL carts xD choice is a good thing though! Darn, 4g tracking force and 6mV output, not as good as Shure at all. But worth a consideration.

Apparently the 'flexible' model is 16 size, whereas Shure was 20, so it will be slightly less flexible than Shure. So maybe wont bend to one side as easily.

Mojaxx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9PlPZCHHFk

Scratching test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAL-4elU6xM&feature=youtu.be

Audio test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2LqAS7usvI

Product info: https://www.ortofon.com/vnl-p-949-n-1444

I'm guessing 'firm' stylus is for sound quality, 'flexible' for longevity with mixing and scratching.. 'flexible' meaning like the Shure stylus, they will eventually bend to one side? xD
One excellent thing though, you get THREE STYLUS with the cartridge purchase. I wonder how much replacements will be though. https://www.storedj.com.au/ortofon-vnl-moving-magnet-dj-cartridge-for-turntablists-and-portablists

Bad thing: no mention of the cost of replacement styli. I won't buy a thing until I know what that will be.
Also we better hope there is good uptake with this, otherwise replacement styli could become as hard to find as Shure lol.

VNL - "In ViNyL we trust"
Even before the launch of the Concorde MkII, we have always studied the of our customers and how they utilize our products.

Skilled DJs demand specialized tools that can help them push their creativity to the edge – consistently testing the boundaries in the realm of performance.

Understanding this and reflecting our extensive experience in industrial design and technological know-how, we present the new Ortofon VNL cartridge – a model tailored uniquely to the unrelenting demands of modern turntablists and portablists.

The new VNL features and improvements
👍 Extra resistance to hardcore scratching and back spinning
👍 High tracking performance for both DVS usage and real vinyl
👍 Optimal balance of output and of sound quality

Technological improvements have been applied for the benefits of all s:
- Ultrasonic welding of the components ensures high rigidity and freedom from resonances.
- Robotic assembly of stylus assembly offers high precision and uniformity of industrial production.

3 different feels to fine-tune your performance
To match the multiple applications of modern DJs the VNL Introduction Package includes 3 different styli with suspension types of varying feel and rigidity:

VNL I compliance, dynamic lateral 16 μm/m N - Flexible
VNL II compliance, dynamic lateral 15 μm/m N - Rigid
VNL III compliance, dynamic lateral 14 μm/m N - Firm

DJs can easily identify which stylus type best suits their individual DJ style and enables their absolute best performance capability.

VNL technical data
Stylus Type SphericalTracking Force 4.0 gOutput Voltage 6 mVFrequency Range 20-20.000 Hz
Output voltage at 1000Hz, 5cm/sec. - 6 mV
Channel separation at 1kHz - 20 dB
Frequency response 20 Hz - 20 kHz -2/+4 dB
Tracking ability at 315 Hz at recommended tracking force:

VNL I 100 μm
VNL II 90 μm
VNL III 90 μm
Compliance, dynamic lateral:

VNL I 16 μm/m N
VNL II 15 μm/m N
VNL III 14 μm/m N


Tracking force range - 3 - 5 g
Tracking force recommended - 4 g
Internal impedance, DC resistance - 750 Ohm
Internal inductance - 450 mH
Recommended load resistance - 47 kOhm
Recommended load capacitance - 200-600 pF
Cartridge weight - 6,5 g
Replacement stylus units: VNL I, VNL II, VNL III
Antiskating: for best backcueing performance use “0”

For information about set-up and alignment, stylus care and lifetime, break-in time, troubleshooting check out our DJ FAQ. https://www.ortofon.com/?section=1523

guide: https://www.ortofon.com/media/151234/5-800161-12_vnl_guide_08_20_web.pdf
product sheet: https://www.ortofon.com/media/151232/9990254_vnl_productsheet_07-20_web.pdf

Also sorry for double post, didn't mean to.

tjtimusk
The annoying this about all this is that JICO make so many different versions of these needles that it's hard to see a consensus. I've heard a lot of rave reviews about jico, and a few mixed like mine. I can only assume the people who are 100% satisfied are the ones who bought the Lumino/Dj improved/Club. I am hopeful that if they are stepping into the cartridge game they will start to hone their products more for the dj market. Time will tell.

I personally don't have huge problems with the 'DJ Improved' model, but they definitely don't scratch as well as Shure. I mostly just mix and backcue and spinback though so I'm ok. Here are some videos of them. All are myself but there is another DJ who I made a video of that I will soon. Running at 3.5g with 0 anti skate. I'm only playing DVS in these videos though, no real vinyl yet. The other video I have with another DJ to soon (next week or so latest) is all real vinyl though.

I also had way more problems with my Tonar which appeared to be the 1.5-3g Jico model, probably ones that didn't meet their QA or something I'm guessing. I met a scratch DJ that 'didn't have problems with Tonar' though, although they were ONLY using DVS and using very high tracking force (3.5-4g+ I think it was).

Breakcore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdbNjm_aF3A
Techno: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pjy9zdIG18
Hardcore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNO9HBrCVVM

NinjaGaijin
Apparently the 'flexible' model is 16 size, whereas Shure was 20, so it will be slightly less flexible than Shure.

Shure’s compliance specs are static measurements so can’t be directly compared to Ortofon’s which are dynamic at 10Hz.

https://service.shure.com/s/article/dynamic-compliance-of-shure-phono-cartridges?language=en_US
https://service.shure.com/s/article/static-compliance-specifications-and-definition?language=en_US

I have measured the 10Hz dynamic compliance of the Shure M35X to be about 14.
The M44-7 might be similar to that but I've not measured it so can't confirm.

I emailed Jico and they apparently don't have a stylus for the Shure M35X cartridge. Does anyone know of a solid replacement? Or should I get some entirely new cartridges?

Thanks

Just bought a pair of Jico replacement styli for my M44Gs. I'm wondering though if anyone has actually done a side by side comparison between Tonar and Jico to prove/justify the poor reviews received by Tonar on this thread. Seems odd to me that the Tonar model could be made by Jico (allegedly) yet have such poor performance in comparison. Does anyone have a good explanation for why this might be?

ballmouse
I emailed Jico and they apparently don't have a stylus for the Shure M35X cartridge. Does anyone know of a solid replacement? Or should I get some entirely new cartridges?

I've not tried these myself but...
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n-44-7x/
M44-7X is an earlier model very similar to M35X.
Review from that page:
"This, along with the n44-gx, both work very well on the M35x Shure body. Sounds is very good as well"

hi everyone,

Bumped into this recently https://www.jetsetrecords.net/i/922005816889/ anybody heard, tried them? Cheers!

alex.mcbride
Just bought a pair of Jico replacement styli for my M44Gs. I'm wondering though if anyone has actually done a side by side comparison between Tonar and Jico to prove/justify the poor reviews received by Tonar on this thread.

I’ll sell you my Tonar for $15 plus shipping and then you can do exactly that. Time for others to step up. Here’s your chance. Get ahold of me :)

gaborincivil

Bumped into this recently https://www.jetsetrecords.net/i/922005816889/

Nagaoka make a 44G stylus too:
https://www.emjmusic.com/product-page/nagaoka-stylus-63-44g-for-shure-m44-series

I found the Chuo Denshi / Chuden ones here as well.
Recommended tracking force 2.0 - 3.0g for their 44G
Recommended tracking force 2.5 - 4.0g for their 44-7
https://www.emjmusic.com/chuden

That's cool chiz, thank you! A n44g with a decent tracking req. opposed to JICO's :)) Which of the 2 would you recommend for minimal house mixing use rarely scratching? Cheers!

gaborincivil
That's cool chiz, thank you! A n44g with a decent tracking req. opposed to JICO's :)) Which of the 2 would you recommend for minimal house mixing use rarely scratching? Cheers!

I've only had original styli for the 44G myself so can't recommend these others from personal experience.
I was just pointing out that there is another company making these apart from those already discussed.
Nagaoka have a solid reputation but theirs appear to be more expensive than the standard or DJ spec Jico ones.
Jico do make one with the original tracking force spec if that's what you're looking for:
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n44g/

chiz
ornid That's cool chiz, thank you! A n44g with a decent tracking req. opposed to JICO's :)) Which of the 2 would you recommend for minimal house mixing use rarely scratching? Cheers!
I've only had original styli for the 44G myself so can't recommend these others from personal experience.
I was just pointing out that there is another company making these apart from those already discussed.
Nagaoka have a solid reputation but theirs appear to be more expensive than the standard or DJ spec Jico ones.
Jico do make one with the original tracking force spec if that's what you're looking for:
https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n44g/

Thanks chiz, yep, that's the one I ed, the JICO one, because it had no protection and went for the club version instead. Apart from the huge tracking force needed, I have no comments, styluses perform nicely. As for my next purchase, yes, I will probably go, either with JICO's n44g, or Nagaoka, tempted by the later tbh.

gaborincivil
I will probably go, either with JICO's n44g, or Nagaoka, tempted by the later tbh.

Cool, would be interesting to hear about the Nagaoka if you try them.

Wow, I came to this thread hoping to get some solid replacement recommendations (I'm running my last pair of original Shure styli) and now I'm just more confused than before :/

I picked up a Jico N55-E improved and I'm finding I have to keep nudging the tracking force up to get it to track everything properly. I'm up to about 3.25 grams now and it's still not giving me the same clarity or handling the tougher records that the Shure N44-G it replaced had no trouble with.

I have just bought an Ortofon VNL cartridge - I will post my thoughts in the coming weeks/months (could be a while). I will be pairing with Technics headshell and Audio Technica headshell leads. Only buying one to see what I think. If I like it I'll buy another, otherwise will probably be moving to Ortofon Concorde DJ mk2. However I sometimes let people use my styli who 'can't scratch' easily with Concordes (although I think they can be scratched with fine). Maybe just had the tonearm weight too high or low. It's been a long time since I've used Concordes myself so I would probably prefer to stay with a headshelled cartridge.

NinjaGaijin
I personally don't have huge problems with the 'DJ Improved' model, but they definitely don't scratch as well as Shure. I mostly just mix and backcue and spinback though so I'm ok. Here are some videos of them. All are myself but there is another DJ who I made a video of that I will soon. Running at 3.5g with 0 anti skate. I'm only playing DVS in these videos though, no real vinyl yet. The other video I have with another DJ to soon (next week or so latest) is all real vinyl though.

Small update: I picked up some Jico n44-7 'DJ improved' styli over boxing day after having meh results with the regular version. Sooooo much better, even without wearing them in. I set them at 3.5g and the tracking is pretty close to what I was used to with the original Shures. After leaving them on the records for a whole afternoon I barely noticed a difference, though I don't scratch or do anything crazy like spin downs. Sound wise, I haven't done too many tests since my shure needles are pretty beat, but I'm happy. Compared to my abused original n44-7 needles they sound great. Overall I really can't complain too much. If a perfect 10 is the original shure, I'd have to give the DJ improved Jicos an 8.5 or 9. I can see why folks recommended them, it's just a shame that there are so many versions to sift though

I switched back to my old shure n44-g from the jico n-55e. He shure tracks so much better at 1.5g than the jico did even maxing out. The Shure is a little more bassy but not having to hear that sibilant distortion is so nice. I guess I'll still try one of the other jicos because this Shure doesn't have tons of time left in it. But for the time being it's much better.