Caps-rule for abbreviated ers like vs. / feat. [sorted]

Sorry guys,

I know it's the xx thread for this topic...

but I will be 100% sure...

I've read today this thread here:
http://discogs.cinepelis.org/forum/thread/52c97fdb4c5e2e2ecfc6fce6

and now I'm a litte bit confused what is right and what is wrong...

as we know finally the fundamental nik's comment here:
http://discogs.cinepelis.org/help/forums/topic/335420#52151b069469733cfcfc382c

1.2.1.
The standard Discogs rule for artist and label names, release and track titles, format free text field, and index track titles, is the First Letter Of Each Word Is Capitalized.

TO:

1.2.1.
The standard Discogs rule for artist and label names, ers, release and track titles, format free text field, and index track titles, is the First Letter Of Each Word Is Capitalized.

http://discogs.cinepelis.org/forum/thread/52c2e964ea62115f5ef47837?page=1#52c694e4d07b096bf851766f


In another thread loukash mentioned today:

loukash
Abbreviations are "as on release".
RSG §1.2.2.b.

http://discogs.cinepelis.org/forum/thread/52c97fdb4c5e2e2ecfc6fce6

RSG §1.2.2.b.
Abbreviations, acronyms, and initialisms should follow what is written on the release, including any punctuation if used.



I've got two pending submissions and would like to know how is it exemplary correct now:

http://discogs.cinepelis.org/Michael-Sauer-Vs-Phoneheads-Feat-Bill-Ramsey-Why-And-How/release/2849778
http://discogs.cinepelis.org/viewimages?release=2849778&browser_mode=1

As you can see here the ers VS. and FEAT. were written in all caps here.

So according RSG §1.2.1. I must enter these ers as Vs. and Feat. right?


my second example:

http://discogs.cinepelis.org/Michael-Sauer-Vs-Phoneheads-Feat-Bill-Ramsey-Why-And-How/release/158945
http://discogs.cinepelis.org/viewimages?release=158945

As you can see the same ers vs. and feat. were written here in lower case.

So according RSG §1.2.2.b. in this case I have to enter these ers written as on release: vs. and feat. right?

the same as ever;
Any helpful comment / opinion is appreciated.
Thanks.

When a er is a full word: caps rule.
When a er is an abbreviation: as on release.

At least, that's how I interpret it.

jmoortga
When a er is a full word: caps rule.
When a er is an abbreviation: as on release.

At least, that's how I interpret it.

hi jmoortga

thanks for your comment.

According your comment I've entered the ers for both releases incorrect - right?

In this case:

http://discogs.cinepelis.org/Michael-Sauer-Vs-Phoneheads-Feat-Bill-Ramsey-Why-And-How/release/2849778

they must be entered as VS. and FEAT. because there were written abbreviated in all caps as on release:

http://discogs.cinepelis.org/viewimages?release=2849778&browser_mode=1

right?

And the other case;

Here:

http://discogs.cinepelis.org/Michael-Sauer-Vs-Phoneheads-Feat-Bill-Ramsey-Why-And-How/release/158945

I've to enter the ers as on release as vs. and feat. because there were written in lower case:

http://discogs.cinepelis.org/viewimages?release=158945

right?

Is this what you mean?

I don't think ALL CAPS would be appropriate in any case.

StaticGuru
I don't think ALL CAPS would be appropriate in any case.

sounds interesting ...

so - if the ers is written abbreviated in ALL CAPS I should disregard RSG §1.2.2.b.

Abbreviations, acronyms, and initialisms should follow what is written on the release, including any punctuation if used.

?

Well, in your example

Willow.the.Wisp
As you can see here the ers VS. and FEAT. were written in all caps here.

everything is written in ALL CAPS, so it's merely a design decision rather than any kind of artistic statement, so the guideline doesn't really apply.

My gut feeling tells me they should follow standard cap rules. Probably we need the management to clarify again.

Willow.the.Wisp
Is this what you mean?

Yes.

hmm...

should I open a request ?

Willow.the.Wisp
should I open a request ?

Is that really needed?

I'm with StaticGuru here:

StaticGuru
everything is written in ALL CAPS, so it's merely a design decision rather than any kind of artistic statement, so the guideline doesn't really apply.

So RSG §1.2.1 is the one to follow in this case. Does anyone think differently?

Bong
Does anyone think differently?

jmoortga for example

jmoortga
When a er is a full word: caps rule.
When a er is an abbreviation: as on release.

At least, that's how I interpret it.

This is the correct logical interpretation of the current guidelines:

jmoortga
When a er is a full word: caps rule.
When a er is an abbreviation: as on release.

"Abbreviations, acronyms, and initialisms should follow what is written on the release, including any punctuation if used" seems clear.

If that needs changed, we need to discuss how we word it. I agree "VS." and "FEAT." in an otherwise standard capitalization title looks incorrect. Maybe abbreviations need their own section?

I think we just need an anti-all caps rule ;)

nik
If that needs changed, we need to discuss how we word it. I agree "VS." and "FEAT." in an otherwise standard capitalization title looks incorrect.

Generally it should be clearly stated that "ALL CAPS" or "PARTial Caps" should be used only on acronyms or – for the latter – when there's an obvious wordplay intention. (The latter should be also allowed on track/release titles, by the way.)
Every other usage* of FULL CAPS – even "intentional" – should be converted either to Title Caps (where required or expected) or to standard sentence capitalization.

*) Does not apply to BAOI/Catalog# fields, of course, which should be also clearly stated. Those must remain "as on release".
That also includes Series numbering, which is technically speaking a catalog#, thus when it's printed verbatim as "GREAT SERIES VOL. 1", then the series name should be of course capitalized as "Great Series", but the numbering as "VOL. 1", not "Vol. 1".

Abbreviated ers follow:

RSG §1.2.2.b.
Abbreviations, acronyms, and initialisms should follow what is written on the release, including any punctuation if used.
?

I would like to make the final changes here:

Willow.the.Wisp

http://discogs.cinepelis.org/Michael-Sauer-Vs-Phoneheads-Feat-Bill-Ramsey-Why-And-How/release/2849778

http://discogs.cinepelis.org/viewimages?release=2849778


http://discogs.cinepelis.org/Michael-Sauer-Vs-Phoneheads-Feat-Bill-Ramsey-Why-And-How/release/158945

http://discogs.cinepelis.org/viewimages?release=158945

hi ...

5 days after my previous comment here and no one says something otherwise -
the case was closed for me and I've updated the submission according nik's statement above -

http://discogs.cinepelis.org/history?release=2849778#latest

Now... regarding this change another commented -

ers VS. and FEAT. are not capitalized correctly, please don't ignore warnings prior to submit your updates.

It does not matter what I do - it seems to be wrong.

That part had an answer even before your question:

nik
I agree "VS." and "FEAT." in an otherwise standard capitalization title looks incorrect.

In general, ALL CAPS is something to be avoided in nearly all situations.

Never mind. I'm staying out of this one.

All caps. No.

Simple guideline update:

1.2.2.b. Acronyms, and initialisms should follow what is written on the release, including any punctuation if used.

1.2.2.c. Abbreviations, contractions and hyphenations should start with a capital letter. The rest of the words capitalization should follow as on the release, except where all caps have been used, which should be turned to lower case.

Any objections?

nik
1.2.2.c. Abbreviations, contractions and hyphenations should start with a capital letter. The rest of the words capitalization should follow as on the release, except where all caps have been used, which should be turned to lower case.

Any objections?

Perfect!

Good. Writing this because good isn't good enough for the min. reply limit.

nik
Any objections?

And when a release list an artist as

HEYJO

but the artist is normally written as "HeyJo"?

↑ uP ↑

↑ uP ↑ ²

DonHergeFan
And when a release list an artist as

HEYJO

but the artist is normally written as "HeyJo"?

As long as I am aware of the usual/correct spelling, I'd add the artist that way ("HeyJo"). This is no different to names such as:

John McLaughlin and the likes. Anything else would be an incorrect rendering of the artist's name.

Ok, and what do we do if a release list the artist as "Angus Maclise"? We still use "Angus MacLise"?

nvm (off topic)

DonHergeFan
Ok, and what do we do if a release list the artist as "Angus Maclise"? We still use "Angus MacLise"?

Good question indeed.

If it is spelled "Maclise" on release I would probably be inclined to enter the name that way. This is because we're supposed not to use an ANV in such instances, but we should reflect things the way they are rendered on release. Technically "Maclise" doesn't make any difference to "MacLise" since both will end up on the same page.

However it would make a difference if the artist is new to the database, since due to one of the oldest system bugs we currently have no way to change a "Maclise" PAN into "MacLise" at a later point.

↑ uP ↑

It would be great to get a final ruling.

↑ uP ↑ ²

Can we get a final ruling on this?

As on release, except if it's in all caps or all lowercase.

yuhann
However it would make a difference if the artist is new to the database, since due to one of the oldest system bugs we currently have no way to change a "Maclise" PAN into "MacLise" at a later point.

This is merely a display issue and should be the concern of developers, not submitters.

StaticGuru
This is merely a display issue and should be the concern of developers, not submitters.

Yeah and what if it goes back to Maclise for some reason? Taking the piss, it is. LOL We'd get editing back n' forth.

Thisis why God invented the request and the ban hammer.

The guideline has been updated at http://discogs.cinepelis.org/forum/thread/52151d0b9469733cfcfc8bda?page=1#531f216a4c5e2e5698acad1c

so we have to turn all nice looking "vs." into horrible looking "Vs." ?

dansauk
so we have to turn all nice looking "vs." into horrible looking "Vs." ?

IIRC a guy from the city of the current premier leagues position 14 football club once said:
Discogs isn't Vanity Fair

nik
The guideline has been updated

thanks a lot!

dansauk
o we have to turn all nice looking "vs." into horrible looking "Vs." ?

Why is "vs" nice, and why is "Vs" horrible for you?

DonHergeFan
Why is "vs" nice, and why is "Vs" horrible for you?

It is horrible for the same reason the Discogs capitalization in general is horrible. "vs." or "vs" is commonly left lowercase. I have yet to see a credible style guide that would say that these need to start with a capital letter.

In addition changes like these are counterproductive. We have now another legacy issue to deal with.