Traditional as an artist credit?

http://discogs.cinepelis.org/search/?q=traditional&type=all

prior to any edits - there are a number of subs here using Traditional as the artist credit which doesn't seem right to me, any other views?

Edit - I do mean as the main artist credit, not written-by ones

It's a valid writing credit, no?

You mean those where Traditional is a main artist? That does look a bit odd.

Yes, it is valid for writing credits, I checked that yesterday - it is described on the page here: http://discogs.cinepelis.org/artist/Traditional

But it doesn't really make much sense as an artist...

I don't think it should be used as a main artist or a track artist either. I think the other "Special Artist" artist names in 2.3.1 are sufficient to fill in gaps where it's not clear who the performing artist is.

Some of the releases currently credited to Traditional as the main artist can probably be switched to Various with the performers on the various tracks as track artists. E.g. Various - Popular Koto Melodies Of Japan - the performers are listed on the release (or I assume they are based on their being credited in the credits section), so someone who has the release could assign the performers to the various tracks. Or, if they all perform on all of the tracks, I think it would be appropriate for them all to be listed as main artists on the release.

I paged nik about this

Why not? If "Traditional" (or an ANV) is presented as main artist ...

Traditional as main artist or track artist is nonsense.
It should be either Traditional should be used for songwriting credits only.

Agree with loukash

Traditional can't be a performing artist...it has to be someone whether they are known or not, if unknown then they're Traditional or variation thereof is a songwriting credit only.

this is a total mess, not only used as an artist but also for visual credits, vocals, instruments etc. A strong case for some coding to restrict the credit to Written-By credits I think unless anyone can suggest any other valid use.

Also a fair few subs in Russian - the couple I looked at have it as a written by credit but I've no idea what the artist translates as

andygrayrecords
Traditional can't be a performing artist

Sure.
But if we talk about the main artist: Main artist is not necessarily the performer.

DonHergeFan
But if we talk about the main artist: Main artist is not necessarily the performer.

Main artist is a "performer" in the widest possible sense: it's a subject which appears on a release by some means.

"Traditional" is not a subject.
It's really that simple.™

Please never say or suggest that main (or track) artists must be performers, it always leads to misunderstandings.

Being that said, I agree that "Traditional" should never be used for other thing than composing/writing credits (actually, could anyone find any release out there where this term was used for a different thing?).

juandaca
Please never say or suggest that main (or track) artists must be performers

That's a different topic, in fact.
See e.g. the somewhat related Forum Thread #524d15c5c131f35559d30fd8, etc.

DonHergeFan
But if we talk about the main artist: Main artist is not necessarily the performer.

+1

loukash
It's really that simple.™

No, it really isn't.

DonHergeFan
Why not? If "Traditional" (or an ANV) is presented as main artist ...

Agreed. No reason at all not to use it. There certainly is no prohibition either in the Guidelines or the profile.

...except if "Traditional" does not appear as main (or track) artist on release.

timetogo
Agreed. No reason at all not to use it. There certainly is no prohibition either in the Guidelines or the profile.

Absolutely, if the main artist or track artist is actually credited as "Traditional" and the use of that term on the release is the same as they way it's used on Discogs.

juandaca
...except if "Traditional" does not appear as main (or track) artist on release.

My educated guess is that this will be the case with the majority of these releases. I don't see any indication that the Popular Koto Melodies recording I cited above is credited to "Traditional" anywhere.

Here's another example: http://discogs.cinepelis.org/viewimages?release=4378665

Perhaps the rules have changed or become clearer in the three years since that release - or rather the version it was drafted from - was submitted. If that release was submitted today, I would expect the main artist to be credited either to Various or to Polly Hitchcock, with the individual performers credited as the track artists. I don't see anything in the Guidelines that would direct the submitter to credit it to "Traditional."

mauso-palooza
I don't see any indication that the Popular Koto Melodies recording I cited above is credited to "Traditional" anywhere.

Then we agree it shouldn't be used.

mauso-palooza
Here's another example: http://discogs.cinepelis.org/viewimages?release=4378665

Perhaps the rules have changed or become clearer in the three years since that release - or rather the version it was drafted from - was submitted. If that release was submitted today, I would expect the main artist to be credited either to Various or to Polly Hitchcock, with the individual performers credited as the track artists. I don't see anything in the Guidelines that would direct the submitter to credit it to "Traditional."

I would enter Polly Hitchcock as the main artist on that one, although I can certainly see using Various as a variety of performers are listed.

timetogo
No, it really isn't.

Yes, it really is that simple:

loukash
"Traditional" is not a subject.

"Traditional" is an attribute.

traditional |trəˈdi sh ənl|
adjective
existing in or as part of a tradition; long-established : the traditional festivities of the church year.
• produced, done, or used in accordance with tradition : a traditional fish soup.
• habitually done, used, or found : the traditional drinks in the clubhouse.
• (of a person or group) adhering to tradition, or to a particular tradition : traditional Elgarians.
• (of jazz) in the style of the early 20th century.

As in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_music

timetogo
There certainly is no prohibition either in the Guidelines or the profile.

Then we should add it.

timetogo
I would enter Polly Hitchcock as the main artist on that one,

I'm having a similar problem with Alan Lomax's work. Hitchcock, like Lomax, is the field recording engineer and author of the liner notes but neither perform on the tracks except perhaps in the function of narrator or "presented by."

I've always limited "Traditional" to music and lyrics authorship. i.e. not the performer on any given cover.

I agree with loukash here. Traditional is used for traditional songs that are credited as such on the release.

It should only to be used for composition type credits.

For main artist credits on such things, if it is not mentioned, they should be 'Unknown Artist', or 'Various' if it is by a bunch of different artists.

I have updated the guidelines to this effect. Thanks!

thanks nik! and now onto the fun part, fixing all these

nik
I have updated the guidelines to this effect.

Thanks, too!

well, the main artist credits are gone. If anyone wants to tackle the track based main artists and the icnorrect credits have fun. I've had my share...

what about FOLK as main artist ? Example: folk fairy tales. Is the same rule as for Traditional ?

oreivis
s the same rule as for Traditional ?

naturally yes

OK good,
I'm the submitter of the Folkways LP (which I drafted from another which had "Traditional" as main artist, without taking notice), let me know if main artist should be changed to Polly Hitchcock..

http://discogs.cinepelis.org/label/Traditional o_o

^
one might be a legit publisher according to the notes
one is fixed now
one I can't really place as it doesn't seem to be a traditional tune, so the label may be correct

DonHergeFan
http://discogs.cinepelis.org/label/Traditional o_o

On The Liberators* & Talking Robot - Does She Love Me which has created the label page it's possibly a valid label name; but there's no images yet.
On UB40 - Homegrown it's literally listed as "'Swing Low' published by Traditional / […]", so at least the intention was "well meant".

syke
one might be a legit publisher according to the notes

"Swing Low [Sweet Chariot]" is a Traditional, so there's no publisher. We'd need a label "Traditional (2)" as an equivalent to "artist" Traditional.

nik
Traditional is used for traditional songs that are credited as such on the release.

It should only to be used for composition type credits.

For main artist credits on such things, if it is not mentioned, they should be 'Unknown Artist', or 'Various' if it is by a bunch of different artists.

I have updated the guidelines to this effect.

100% happy, thanks for the update. This has been bugging me for a long time.

loukash
On Liberators, The* & Talking Robot - Does She Love Me which has created the label page it's possibly a valid label name; but there's no images yet.

The label really seems to be Traditional:

http://assets.rootsvinylguide.com/pictures/the-liberators-and-talking-robot-does-she-love-me-version-traditional-7_755143

http://www.ebreggae.com/reggae-images/front/Vinyl/117697/The-Liberators-And-Talking-Robot-Does-She-Love-Me-ORIGINAL-PRESS.jpg

anssisal
The label really seems to be Traditional:

Thanks! I have updated Traditional accordingly.

Is anv'ing the traditional credit ok like on this release?:
Wiener Sängerknaben* - Hoogtepunten Van De Wiener Sängerknaben
anvs Folk Tune From Bavarina
German Folk Tune
Folk Song From Austria

Should be now moved to the newly established Folk placeholder which wasn't yet established in Feb 2012.

This submission has 'Folk' as main artist.

DonHergeFan
This submission has 'Folk' as main artist.

"Musique Folklorique Alsacienne" is either the name of the ensemble perfoming, or it's the release title.

loukash
Should be now moved to the newly established Folk placeholder

So it is ok to use an anv of a music type as credit?

Moving forward, I would enter:

Written-By [From Bavarina] Folk
Written-By [German] Folk
Written-By [From Austria] Folk

for:

Folk Tune From Bavarina
German Folk Tune
Folk Song From Austria

That is by analogy with instructions on proper handling of traditional in the traditional profile.

ANV like "Folk" ANV "German Folk Tune" should be valid, see

2.5.11. You can use ANVs on Special Artists (Various, Traditional, Anonymous etc) as long as the ANV is a variation or translation of it, and the ANV is printed on the release.

I was reading this from the Traditional profile:

NOTE: If the writer credit is NOT a variation or translation of 'Traditional', please check for an existing artist name, or use the following format as a credit: Written-By [ReleaseCredit] - Traditional

Example: If the release has 'Christmas Carol' as the credit, please first check to make sure it does not exist as an artist name, and then credit it as: Written-By [Christmas Carol] - Traditional

I saw, for example, "Folk Tune From Bavarina," as not being a variation or translation of Folk. It's much more specific than Folk. "Folk Tune," on the other hand, is a generic term which might be a variation of Folk.

Would it be OK to use an ANV as follows:

Written-By [From Bavarina] Folk Tune*?

It currently looks like there are dozens if not hundreds of ANV's for folk (seemingly most with only a single release). So the ANV's aren't very helpful. Should we be adding more?

loukash
"Musique Folklorique Alsacienne" is either the name of the ensemble perfoming, or it's the release title.

No, it's the intellectual source of the performed music, in the same matter as a composer is given as the source of a piece of muisc.

The only difference is here a limited group of people with a certain connection is presented as the source instead of a very specific individual. They are both subjects which contributed to the music recorded on the release. But a named composer is an individual, a folklore/tradition is a group of people. Using folk/folklore/traditional as main artist is in fact the same matter as when anonymous would be the main artist. But anonymous is even less specific and is more often used for an unknown single subject, rather than an unspecified (or only limited specified) group of people.

Dr.SultanAszazin
No, it's the intellectual source of the performed music

To me, "Musique folklorique alsacienne, dir. Jules Mayer" sounds either as if "Musique folklorique alsacienne" was an ensemble name, or, if that's not the case, then it's a part of the release title.

By no means it's an ANV of a "main artist" called "Folk".
There is no main artist called "Folk", just like there's no main artist called "Traditional":

nik
I agree with loukash here. Traditional is used for traditional songs that are credited as such on the release.
It should only to be used for composition type credits.

Dr.SultanAszazin
a named composer is an individual

If a composer is named, then they can be a main artist.

On your submission the named main artist is apparently (since we don't have any images) Jules Mayer.
That's it.

P.S. There's a couple of other minor issues with your submission:
• Dances should go to the notes, not as track titles
• "Made In Frane" should probably spell "Made In "