Sonopress Brasil

Previous thread about Sonopress Brasil: jweijde

I was talking with lbamaral about SONPRESS at matrix CDs from Brasil, and this is what we found until now

- between 1990 and 1992, before the establishment of VAT - Video Audio Tape Do Amazonas S/A. manufactured the CDs, usually mentioning "Sonopress®" on the disc face serigraph. The glass masters of these discs were certainly produced at the German headquarters, but it is not clear how many of them could have been pressed there and come ready for packaging at Brasil.
Most of these CD have Sonopress – C/F/G/H/L - [####] pattern

So these CDs LCCN should be
Manufactured By: VAT - Video Audio Tape Do Amazonas S/A.
Glass Mastered At Sonopress and C/F/G/H/L - ##### can be added
Pressed By: is very difficult to know which ones were pressed in by Sonopress or in Brazil by VAT. I would not credit Pressed At Sonopress unless I have strong evidences of it

- as of the end of 1993, the Sonopress Brasil", notably between 1994-96 and again between 2003-04; most only as "SONOPRESS"

The plant responsible for the roles of pressing, printing and assembling, summarized as "Fabricado Pela" or "Produzido Na" must be - by the force of federal law - identified on the back cover of the CDs. Thus, there is no reason to attribute the "Pressed By" role to a company other than the one already identified.
The "Glass Mastered At" role can be - IMO - used on releases with Sonopress Brasil and also on the ones with "Sonopress" identified with those brazilian-unique codes (Mould SID Code IFPI 11xx)

So for these CDs we can identify them as
Manufactured By Sonopress-Rimo Indústria e Comércio Fonográfica Ltda.
Glass Mastered at https://discogs.cinepelis.org/forum/thread/823109
Pressed By: Can be pressed at Manaus or São Paulo, so IMO we should not add it

All I need is an edit model to follow [since I don't have the knowledge to be constructive on this]

I'm sensing that Brazilian Arvato / Arvato Digital Services releases may also go through some sort of review afterward.

Just adding information to the last part that Sonopress factories in Brazil were
Sonopress-Rimo da Amazônia Indústria e Comércio Fonográfica Ltda. in Manaus, AM
Contrary to what I had informed you, the matrix production laboratory was installed in São Paulo, not Manaus in 1993

since 2013 the
Rimo S.A. (established in 2008) gradually took over, using RIMO Entertainment on matrices
>>> http://www.rimo.net/about

aberdeenalternative
Brazilian Arvato / Arvato Digital Services releases may also go through some sort of review

+ many Sonopress-Rimo releases used Arvato or Arvato Digital Services on matrices, notably between 2009 and 2012-13

And about "Rimo Entertainment"?

jcomin
So these CDs LCCN should be
Manufactured By: VAT - Video Audio Tape Do Amazonas S/A.
Glass Mastered At Sonopress and C/F/G/H/L - ##### can be added
Pressed By: is very difficult to know which ones were pressed in by Sonopress or in Brazil by VAT. I would not credit Pressed At Sonopress unless I have strong evidences of it

This sounds the best way to credit such releases, and I agree with avoiding the Pressed By role.

jcomin
So for these CDs we can identify them as
Manufactured By Sonopress-Rimo Indústria e Comércio Fonográfica Ltda.
Glass Mastered at Sonopress Brasil without xxxx/YY because it is not a sequential number as we already agree here: https://discogs.cinepelis.org/forum/thread/823109
Pressed By: Can be pressed at Manaus or São Paulo, so IMO we should not add it

Agree with this also, but it does raise the question of what should be do with releases manufactured by Sonopress-Rimo Indústria e Comércio Fonográfica Ltda. (or Sonopress-Rimo da Amazonia), but show Sonopress Avato or Arvato Digital Services in the matrix?

Are those Manufactured By credits always based on the text on the artwork ?

jweijde
Are those Manufactured By credits always based on the text on the artwork ?

Yes, in these cases I took them all from the text on the artwork

Myriad
what should be do with releases manufactured by Sonopress-Rimo Indústria e Comércio Fonográfica Ltda. (or Sonopress-Rimo da Amazonia), but show Sonopress Avato or Arvato Digital Services in the matrix?

The tradenames Sonopress Arvato are not Brazilian's Sonopress-Rimo exclusivity, but most Brazilian releases that mention them use the pattern "logo-LABELNAME-catalognumber-code/YY" which seems to be a pattern only found in Brazil. It can indicate that
1/ the matrices were manufactured here with only the tradenames and logos applied on them. This reasoning is evidenced by the numbering of the machines that manufactured the matrices, listed above.
2/ the matrices were manufactured on US or EU with the Brazilian pattern codes. In this case, I think this pattern should be included on both page profiles, as was done for Europe, USA and Mexico on Sonopress Arvato or and USA on Arvato

Even though they are not strictly sequential, these xxxx/YY codes are unique and do not repeat themselves, which seems to me to be a good condition for them to be marked in the LCCN "Glass Mastered At - Sonopress Brasil".

Another proposition I make is to mark as "Glass Mastered At - Sonopress Brasil" all releases with matrices manufactured in Brazil, regardless of whether there is "BRASIL" in the matrix, in the same way as it happens on Mexico, where a good number of releases credits Glass Mastered At - Sonopress Mexico without having "Mexico" on matrices. Am I right Martin_H_Unzon?

..............................

And please avoid the use of "Pressed By" any of these foreign companies as the MoulD SID evidences that they were pressed in one of Sonopress-Rimo (AM or SP) factories. It's utter nonsense to find releases with

"Manufactured By – Sonopress-Rimo da Amazônia Indústria E Comércio Fonográfica Ltda.
Pressed By – Sonopress Arvato
Matrix / Runout: Sonopress Arvato [Logo] SONOPRESS XXXXXX xxxx/YY
Mastering SID Code: IFPI LB49
Mould SID Code: IFPI 1161"

lbamaral

Another proposition I make is to mark as "Glass Mastered At - Sonopress Brasil" all releases with matrices manufactured in Brazil, regardless of whether there is "BRASIL" in the matrix, in the same way as it happens on Mexico, where a good number of releases credits Glass Mastered At - Sonopress Mexico without having "Mexico" on matrices. Am I right Martin_H_Unzon?

I agree with this,
except the CDs Manufactured By VAT - Video Audio Tape Do Amazonas S/A. with matrix pattern C/F/G/H/L - #####
This should be IMO: Glass Mastered At Sonopress with [####] as the Catalog Number on LCCN

Because these CDs were Glass Mastered at Sonopress

jcomin
these CDs were Glass Mastered at Sonopress

Right, agree

lbamaral
Even though they are not strictly sequential, these xxxx/YY codes are unique and do not repeat themselves, which seems to me to be a good condition for them to be marked in the LCCN "Glass Mastered At - Sonopress Brasil".

I already asked this question here https://discogs.cinepelis.org/forum/thread/823109#8170787
And we agree should not be added

But I agree with you that as they are unique should be helpfull to add them

lbamaral

Another proposition I make is to mark as "Glass Mastered At - Sonopress Brasil" all releases with matrices manufactured in Brazil, regardless of whether there is "BRASIL" in the matrix, in the same way as it happens on Mexico, where a good number of releases credits Glass Mastered At - Sonopress Mexico without having "Mexico" on matrices. Am I right Martin_H_Unzon?

This is a big change, so more than 2 must agree with this,
any other ?

We should add at Label Sonopress Brasil

Sonopress factories in Brazil were
Sonopress Ind. e Com. Fonográfica Ltda. and Sonopress-Rimo Indústria e Comércio Fonográfica Ltda. in São Paulo, SP
Sonopress Rimo Indústria E Comércio Fonográfica S.A. and Sonopress-Rimo da Amazônia Indústria e Comércio Fonográfica Ltda. in Manaus, AM

The CDs manufactured at these plants were generally identified only with the company name and product registration numbers, some of them identifying the year of production in a xxxx/YY pattern.
[xxxx] sequential number from this [YY] year of production

You can credit this Manufacturing Plant as "Glass Mastered At Sonopress Brasil", at all CDs made in Brasil with Sonopress Matrix and Mould SID Code IFPI 11xx

Please do not enter the [xxxx/YY] as the Catalog Number on LCCN

jcomin
This is a big change, so more than 2 must agree with this,

Big change indeed, with applicability in thousands of releases. This is not a demand for correction, but only a paradigm shift in accepting releases with BaOI credits that indicate having been mastered in the Brazilian Sonopress - or through analysis of the matrix code pattern or by the presence of one of the Mastering SID Codes related to the company - so that, little by little and with due care, we can transform Sonopress Brasil into a receptacle for all applicable "Glass Mastered At" credits.

once again, if there are already role models to copy from I can be helpful in switching the releases properly.

that's the good thing about profiles like Cinram Olyphant's, for instance. they offer models for the regular non "studied" s like me to easily apply the adequate configurations.

aberdeenalternative we are discussing and trying to agree which is the correct and best way to add the information in the diferent Sonopress Brasil periods.
I hope we will find a concensus during the next weeks

Just as a reminder

Novodisc BR matrices have that xxx/yy pattern that resets by the year.
Novodisc 3 matrices have sequential numbering.

What you think something like this first draft:

Please note that this profile should only be credited in the following situations:
· 'SONOPRESS BRASIL' written in full in the disc matrix or printed artwork
· 'SONOPRESS' or the Sonopress logo (without Brasil), in combination with mastering SID code IFPI L029 or IFPI LB43 and mould SID code IFPI 11**.

Matrix pattern: ####/YY

Please do not enter the [####] as the Catalog Number on LCCN

The year of the CD glass master can be determined from the Sonopress Brasil matrix number [YY]

A glass mastering year indicated the earliest POSSIBLE release year - not more, no less
These dates may be used to determine if the release is an original release or a repress, but does not inform the release date itself as glass masters are frequently used some time after it was originally manufactured.

Some early Brasilian releases name Sonopress in the matrix, although it is uncertain that these glass masters were manufactured by Sonopress Brasil, and therefore they should not be listed on this profile. Instead:

For releases that show the following matrix pattern:
SONOPRESS X-#### / [release ID] XX,
please enter:
Glass Mastered At – Sonopress – X-####
Example: Primus - Sailing The Seas Of Cheese

For releases that show the following matrix pattern:
SONOPRESS [release ID] + + #####-##,
please enter:
Glass Mastered At – Sonopress USA – #####-##
Example: Banda Brasil - Banda Brasil

These discs may well have been duplicated by Sonopress Brasil, but without mould SID code or other hub mould text it is not possible to determine that for certain.

For releases that show the following matrix pattern:
SONOPRESS [release ID] + + #####-##,
Mastering SID Code: IFPI L027/L028
Mould SID Code: IFPI 11xx
please enter:
Glass Mastered At – Sonopress USA – #####-##
Pressed By: Sonopress Brasil
Example: Various - Terrordrome - The Best Of Hardcore Dance

jcomin
first draft:

Sonopress Brasil = CDs and DVDs glass mastering facility laboratory in Brazil

Please note that this profile should only be credited for the LCCN role "Glass Mastered At" in the following situations:
· 'SONOPRESS BRASIL' written in full in the disc matrix or printed artwork
· 'SONOPRESS Arvato', 'SONOPRESS' or both Sonopress or Arvato Digital logos (without Brasil), in combination with any of the mastering SID codes used on the company lifetime: L029, L333, L363, L364, LB43, LB49, LL75, LW25, LW75, LY92 and mould SID code IFPI 11**.

[...]

These discs may well have been duplicated by Sonopress Brasil any of the Brazilian Sonopress factories, but without mould SID code or other hub mould text it is not possible to determine that for certain.

.......

This way we can direct the profile only for "Glass Mastered At" role, keeping the "Pressed By" for the company credited in full name on releases

lbamaral

This way we can direct the profile only for "Glass Mastered At" role, keeping the "Pressed By" for the company credited in full name on releases

I agree

So ....

For releases that show the following matrix pattern:
SONOPRESS [release ID] + + #####-##,
Mastering SID Code: IFPI L027/L028
Mould SID Code: IFPI 11xx
please enter:
Glass Mastered At – Sonopress USA – #####-##
Pressed By: Sonopress Brasil
Example: Various - Terrordrome - The Best Of Hardcore Dance

Pressed By Sonopress Brasil it not correct

We should only add
Manufactured By Sonopress-Rimo da Amazônia Indústria e Comércio Fonográfica Ltda.
or
Manufactured By Sonopress-Rimo Indústria e Comércio Fonográfica Ltda.

based on the text on the artwork

For releases that show the following matrix pattern:
SONOPRESS [release ID] + + #####-##,
Mastering SID Code: IFPI L027/L028
Mould SID Code: IFPI 11xx
please enter:
Glass Mastered At – Sonopress USA – #####-##
Pressed By: Sonopress Brasil
Example: Various - Terrordrome - The Best Of Hardcore Dance*

* > we don't know for sure where they were pressed if the company full name is not on back inlay company text. "Sonopress ® Ind. Brasileira" is not a direct reference to the Sonopress Brasil glass mfg facility lab. Only the analysis of CGC/CNPJ would solve the question if no full company name is mentioned on release:
CGC/CNPJ 84.494.129/xxxx-xx for the Manaus based factory (Sonopress-Rimo da Amazônia Indústria e Comércio Fonográfica Ltda.,
CGC/CNPJ 67.562.884/xxxx-xx for the São Paulo based factory (Sonopress-Rimo Indústria e Comércio Fonográfica Ltda.)

I am trying to solve inconsistencies / ambiguities with the references about CGC/CNPJ and addresses on the several pages in use / valid for the BR Sonopress, as follows
Sonopress Rimo Indústria E Comércio Fonográfico Ltda., 6 releases

Company names I found on releases so far are
Sonopress Indústria E Comércio Fonográfica Ltda. (São Paulo - CGC/CNPJ 67.562.884/xxxx-xx)
Sonopress Indústria E Comércio Fonográfico Ltda. (Manaus - CGC/CNPJ 84.494.129/xxxx-xx)
Sonopress Rimo Indústria E Comércio Fonográfica Ltda. (São Paulo - CGC/CNPJ 67.562.884/xxxx-xx and Manaus - CGC/CNPJ 84.494.129/xxxx-xx) > same name 2 addresses
Sonopress Rimo Indústria E Comércio Fonográfico Ltda. (Manaus - CGC/CNPJ 84.494.129/xxxx-xx)
Sonopress Rimo Indústria E Comércio Fonográfica S.A. (Manaus - CGC/CNPJ 84.494.129/xxxx-xx and CGC/CNPJ 67.562.884/xxxx-xx) > 2 CGC/CNPJ on same address
Sonopress Rimo Da Amazônia Indústria E Comércio Ltda. (Manaus - CGC/CNPJ 84.494.129/xxxx-xx)
Sonopress Rimo Da Amazônia Indústria E Comércio Fonográfica Ltda. (Manaus - CGC/CNPJ 84.494.129/xxxx-xx)

Great info!!!!
It is not going to be easy to solve the inconsistencies

So the fact: "Only the analysis of CGC/CNPJ would solve the question if no full company name is mentioned on release" it is not 100% true at the moment.

So the phrase should stay as:
"we don't know for sure where they were pressed if the company full name is not on back inlay company text.
Dont add "Manufacturing By" if no full company name is mentioned on release
"Sonopress ® Ind. Brasileira" is not a direct reference to the Sonopress Brasil glass mfg facility lab.

lbamaral
I am trying to solve inconsistencies / ambiguities with the references about CGC/CNPJ and addresses on the several pages in use / valid for the BR Sonopress, as follows
Sonopress-Rimo da Amazônia Indústria e Comércio Fonográfica Ltda. 5,695 releases
Sonopress Rimo Indústria E Comércio Fonográfica S.A. 2,776 releases
Sonopress-Rimo Indústria e Comércio Fonográfica Ltda. 963 releases
Sonopress Ind. e Com. Fonográfica Ltda., 30 releases
Sonopress Rimo Indústria E Comércio Fonográfico Ltda., 6 releases

IMO some of these must be merge beforing trying to do something else.
As for Sonopress-Rimo da Amazônia Indústria e Comércio Fonográfica Ltda.
Brazilian manufacturing company. Also referred to as:
- Sonopress Rimo da Amazônia Indústria e Com. Fonográfica Ltda
- Sonopress-Rimo da Amazônia Ind. e Com. Fonog. Ltda
- Sonopress Rimo da Amazônia Ind. e Com. Fonog. Ltda.
- Sonopress Rimo Da Amazônia Industria E Comércio Ltda
- Sonopress Rimo da Amazônia Ltda.

I also find this one Various - Coleções - Os 14 Grandes Tenores - Clássicos Série Ouro Vol.1 with
"Sonopress Rimo da Amazônia Ind. E Com. Ltda."
I wll add this one under Sonopress-Rimo da Amazônia Indústria e Comércio Fonográfica Ltda.

For me only these Labels must remain on its own
Sonopress Rimo Indústria E Comércio Fonográfica S.A.

Any other?

For me these 2
Sonopress Rimo Indústria E Comércio Fonográfico Ltda.
must be merged into Sonopress-Rimo Indústria e Comércio Fonográfica Ltda.

I already update Sonopress Brasil profile

Please double check it and make any change it needs

found this release with Master Sid IFPI LW75 that seems to qualify for Sonopress Brasil Strapping Young Lad - The New Black

another 2006 release with this pattern Stone Sour - Come What(ever) May. Seems to be a transitional period when IFPI LW75 was starting to be used

aberdeenalternative
found this release with Master Sid IFPI LW75 that seems to qualify for Sonopress Brasil Strapping Young Lad - The New Black

Yes, as lbamaral said,

We should credit Glass Mastered At Sonopress Brasil when
'SONOPRESS Arvato', 'SONOPRESS' or both Sonopress or Arvato Digital logos, in combination with any of the mastering SID codes used on the company lifetime: L029, L333, L363, L364, LB43, LB49, LL75, LW25, LW75, LY92

If you agree, I will add this to the Sonopress Brasil label profile

yeah, that's important info for loads of post-2006 releases

yeah, that's important info for loads of post-2006 releases

jcomin, the profile looks great so far, awesome work!

jcomin
'SONOPRESS Arvato', 'SONOPRESS' or both Sonopress or Arvato Digital logos, in combination with any of the mastering SID codes used on the company lifetime: L029, L333, L363, L364, LB43, LB49, LL75, LW25, LW75, LY92

Is that to say that any matrix showing the logo Arvato would also be placed on the Sonopress Brasil page?

he's talking about cases like this Titãs - Titãs, where there is a combination of logos in matrix.

Myriad
jcomin, the profile looks great so far, awesome work!

jcomin'SONOPRESS Arvato', 'SONOPRESS' or both Sonopress or Arvato Digital logos, in combination with any of the mastering SID codes used on the company lifetime: L029, L333, L363, L364, LB43, LB49, LL75, LW25, LW75, LY92
Is that to say that any matrix showing the logo Sonopress Arvato, Arvato Digital Services, or Arvato would also be placed on the Sonopress Brasil page?

Really hard to say
Because for example Arvato Digital Services have production facilities in 18 countries on all five continents

and in some cases like
for USA plants we use Arvato Digital Services Bertelsmann, USA with Mastering SID codes: IFPI L027, IFPI L028, IFPI LB41, IFPI LB48, IFPI LY93
Mould SID codes: IFPI 10xx
for Mexico plants we use Arvato Digital Services, Mexico with Mastering SID Code: IFPI LP74, and the Mould SID Code: IFPI 08##

So I guess we should use Arvato Digital Services, Brazil
for releases with [Arvato Digital Services logo] and Mastering SID Code: IFPI LW7574, and the Mould SID Code: IFPI 11##
Like for this release AC/DC - High Voltage

jcomin
I guess we should use Arvato Digital Services, Brazil
for releases with [Arvato Digital Services logo] and Mastering SID Code: IFPI LW7574, and the Mould SID Code: IFPI 11##

I would not use mould SID codes since companies other than any of the BR Sonopress may have pressed and manufactured CDs with glasses ordered from / made by (Sonopress Brasil) Arvato Digital Services
Matrices with Arvato Digital Services has Mastering SID Codes IFPI LY92 (often LV), IFPI LP74, , IFPI LW75 (sometimes LM or LU or LW73), maybe others on 572 matches https://discogs.cinepelis.org/search/?type=release&barcode=IFPI+L+Arvato+Digital&country=brazil

Myriad
Is that to say that any matrix showing the logo Sonopress Arvato, Arvato Digital Services, or Arvato would also be placed on the Sonopress Brasil page?

We know that all the glass matrices were produced in the same lab, but under different identifications. Some may be dated at intervals of years, and more than one may have occurred at the same time. Should we separate each of them into different entries?
Sonopress Brasil
Arvato Brasil (?)
Sonopress Arvato Brasil (mostly used on DVD, with small "Sonopress Arvato" logo + large SONOPRESS on string / ~50 releases fo far)
Arvato Digital Services Brasil (many with "Arvato Digital Services Bertelsmann" logo, ~500 releases to edit LCCN)

I say yes, it would follow the same logics applied for Sonopress

aberdeenalternative
I say yes, it would follow the same logics applied for Sonopress

We should use exactly the same logic we used for "Arvato Digital Services Bertelsmann, USA" and "Arvato Digital Services, Mexico", for Arvato Digital Services, Brazil

Hi jcomin
Regardless of the inclusion or not of Arvato / Arvato Digital brands there are a lot of Mastering SID codes missing on Sonopress Brasil profile, including IFPI LW75 as I was questioned / threatened on Roberta Sá - Que Belo Estranho Dia Pra Se Ter Alegria

jcomin
We should credit Glass Mastered At Sonopress Brasil when
'SONOPRESS Arvato', 'SONOPRESS' or both Sonopress or Arvato Digital logos, in combination with any of the mastering SID codes used on the company lifetime: L029, L333, L363, L364, LB43, LB49, LL75, LW25, LW75, LY92

If you agree, I will add this to the Sonopress Brasil label profile

lbamaral
Hi jcomin
Regardless of the inclusion or not of Arvato / Arvato Digital brands there are a lot of Mastering SID codes missing on Sonopress Brasil profile, including IFPI LW75 as I was questioned / threatened on Roberta Sá - Que Belo Estranho Dia Pra Se Ter Alegria

jcominWe should credit Glass Mastered At Sonopress Brasil when
'SONOPRESS Arvato', 'SONOPRESS' or both Sonopress or Arvato Digital logos, in combination with any of the mastering SID codes used on the company lifetime: L029, L333, L363, L364, LB43, LB49, LL75, LW25, LW75, LY92

If you agree, I will add this to the Sonopress Brasil label profile

I only add L029 and LB43 because I was 100% sure that all CDs with these Mastering SID Codes were Glass Mastered at Sonopress Brasil.
If you are sure that also all these Mastering SID Codes L333, L363, L364, LB49, LL75, LW25, LW75, LY92 were also from CDs Glass Mastered at Sonopress Brasil, you can make the change at Sonopress Brasil profile.

And I will start double checking all and adding "Glass Mastered At Sonopress Brasil" at the ones without

jcomin
If you are sure that also all these Mastering SID Codes L333, L363, L364, LB49, LL75, LW25, LW75, LY92 were also from CDs Glass Mastered at Sonopress Brasil, you can make the change at Sonopress Brasil profile.

All these Mastering SID Codes were used by the Brazilian Sonopress and some are still used by RIMO Entertainment. The mention of some with the lack of others in the profile misleads the understanding of the scope of the page, as you may have noticed by the unfriendly comment in the release I edited.

643 releases with Sonopress + IFPI LB49 https://discogs.cinepelis.org/search/?type=release&barcode=sonopress+LB49
82 already on Sonopress Brasil https://discogs.cinepelis.org/search/?type=release&label=%22sonopress+brasil%22&barcode=sonopress+LB49

515 releases with Sonopress + IFPI LW75 https://discogs.cinepelis.org/search/?type=release&barcode=sonopress+LW75
56 already on Sonopress Brasil https://discogs.cinepelis.org/search/?type=release&label=%22sonopress+brasil%22&barcode=sonopress+LW75

4 releases with Sonopress + IFPI LY92 https://discogs.cinepelis.org/search/?type=all&barcode=Sonopress+IFPI+LY92&country=brazil

Both IFPI L333, IFPI L363 and IFPI LL75 has 1 release each with Sonopress + SID code on BaOI
Zero matches for L364, LW25 which apparently only shows Arvato or Rimo brands

I would include at least LB49, LW75 and LY92 as confirmed cases free of misreading on Sonopress Brasil

lbamaral

I would include at least LB49, LW75 and LY92 as confirmed cases free of misreading on Sonopress Brasil

I agree with you, I will added at Sonopress Brasil profile

Then we will have to see what to do with releases with these Mastering SID Codes (LB49, LW75 and LY92) after 2004 and up to 2008
All of these will have Sonopress Arvato matrices, like this one Metallica - The Videos 1989 - 2004

IMO this one was Glass Mastered At Sonopress Arvato Brasil

And the ones with Arvato Digital Services at Matrix like this one Temple Of The Dog - Temple Of The Dog
Also with the same Matrix pattern: ####/YY as Sonopress Brasil
And Mould Sid Code IFPI 11xx

IMO This should be Glass Mastered at Arvato Digital Services Brasil

jcomin
Then we will have to see what to do with releases with these Mastering SID Codes (LB49, LW75 and LY92) after 2004 and up to 2008
All of these will have Sonopress Arvato matrices

As we don't have (yet) neither Sonopress Arvato Brasil or Arvato Digital Services Brasil, these cases are merely mentions of a brand belonging to the group in releases of a certain period. If "SONOPRESS" plus any of these SID codes appear in a matrix string with job# in the ####/YY pattern, it is characterized that the matrix was manufactured in the Brazilian facility of Sonopress-Rimo, here known as Sonopress Brasil

Hi Jose
Can we think about also unifying in the generic brand Rimo S.A. are different legal names for the same company, successors of Sonopress-Rimo ICF.

lbamaral

4 releases with Sonopress + IFPI LY92 https://discogs.cinepelis.org/search/?type=all&barcode=Sonopress+IFPI+LY92&country=brazil

These 4 release with Sonopress + IFPI LY92 are releases of 2 or more CDs, the CD with IFPI LY92 doesnt have Sonopress at matrix

And I finished adding Glass Mastered At Sonopress Brasil in all the others

So it is time to started solving all the items that can no longer be credited as "Glass Mastered At Sonopress Brasil"

For example these are the diferent matrices of items with Mastering SID Code IFPI LW75

up to 2007 - SONOPRESS
2008 - [Arvato digital services BETELMANN logo] Sonopress
2009 - [Arvato digital services BETELMANN logo] Sonopress and [Arvato digital services BETELMANN logo] Arvato Digital Services
2010 - [Arvato digital services BETELMANN logo] Arvato Digital Services
2011 - [Arvato digital services BETELMANN logo] Arvato Digital Services
2012 - [Arvato logo]
2013 - [Arvato logo] and [Rimo Entertainment logo]
2014 - [Rimo Entertainment logo]
2015 - [Rimo Entertainment logo]

So what to credit as Glass Mastered At in this cases?
most 2014 and 2015 credit Glass Mastered At Rimo Entertainment

2008 and 2009 with [Arvato digital services BETELMANN logo] Sonopress were Glass Mastered at Sonopress Brasil
And the rest?

jcomin
So it is time to started solving all the items that can no longer be credited as "Glass Mastered At Sonopress Brasil"

Considering that it is indisputable that the laboratory / facility where the matrices were manufactured is always the same, I think it would be less complicated to credit Sonopress Brasil to everyone where the Sonopress name appears (alone or in brand composition) and where it does not appear to use either the existing Rimo Entertainment or one to create Arvato Brasil (or Arvato Digital Services, Brazil)
FWIW, Arvato Digital Services Bertelsmann, USA was also created without " , USA " being mentioned - see images on the page - so it seems ok to create "Arvato Brasil"

IMO we should create Arvato Brasil

Operated 2008 through 2013

Discs produced by this company can be identified by [arvato digital services BERTELSMANN logo] or [Arvato logo]
and having Mastering SID codes: IFPI LW75, IFPI LY92, IFPI LB49
Mould SID codes: IFPI 11xx

In conjunction with the following CD Matrix patterns:

[logo Arvato Digital Services Bertelsmann] Arvato Digital Services ZZZZZ xxxxx/YY (from 2008 to 2011)
- xxxxxxx is a number assigned by Arvato for internal cataloguing.
- YY Glass mastered Year.
- ZZZZZ release catalogue number.

[Arvato logo] xxxxx/YY ZZZZZ (from 2012 to 2013)

- xxxxxxx is a number assigned by Arvato for internal cataloguing.
- YY Glass mastered Year.
- ZZZZZ release catalogue number.

jcomin
IMO we should create Arvato Brasil

Fine with me

I would only change "Discs produced by this company can be..." by "Glass Masters produced by this company can be..."
As discussed earlier, we cannot give room for interpretations such as Manufactured By, Produced For, Made By in the sense of the final product CD or DVD, with cases, printed stuff and discs that already indicate - on the cover or labels - the full name of the company that manufactured and assembled everything.

I invite some other experts in Brasilian releases before make "Arvato Brasil" new label

MaxxTankian

Good. I like the model suggested by Jose. It's straight to the point and easy to follow.

...and thanks for calling me an "expert". That was really way too generous.

Thanks for calling me an "expert". That was really way too generous. ²!
I have few discs in this period [2008-2011], but many of them are new pressings (not the 1st). I may check any info of them.

Arvato Brasil created

After adding a couple Glass Mastered At Arvato Brasil I came to

up to 2007 - SONOPRESS
2008 - [Arvato digital services BETELMANN logo] Sonopress
2009 - [Arvato digital services BETELMANN logo] Sonopress and [Arvato digital services BETELMANN logo] Arvato Digital Services
2010 - [Arvato digital services BETELMANN logo] Arvato Digital Services
2011 - [Arvato digital services BETELMANN logo] Arvato Digital Services
2012 - [Arvato logo]
2013 - [Arvato logo] and [Rimo Entertainment logo]
2014 - [Rimo Entertainment logo]
2015 - [Rimo Entertainment logo]

all 2008 and some 2009 CD have [Arvato digital services BETELMANN logo] Sonopress

For the Mexican releases with Arvato and Sonopress we use Sonopress Arvato, Mexico
Mexican glass-mastering and pressing plant, part of the Sonopress Arvato group operating in the same time period from 2004 to 2008, after which it changed its name to Arvato Digital Services, Mexico. Previously known as Sonopress Mexico.

Should we also create a Sonopress Arvato, Brasil?
If not, were should we add these matrices, as Glass Mastered at Arvato Brasil

For the moment I add at Arvato Brasil
For matrix pattern [logo Arvato Digital Services Bertelsmann] SONOPRESS please use Glass Mastered At Sonopress Brasil

jcomin
Arvato Brasil created

jcomin
Should we also create a Sonopress Arvato, Brasil?

Not IMO. I can only suggest a little more emphasis on listing Sonopress Brasil, Arvato Brasil and Rimo Entertainment as being the same lab facility with 3 names in almost 30 years of operation. Thus, it is possible to rank that the GM should only be Rimo Entertainment if it does not have Arvato or its logo, and should only be Arvato Brasil if it does not have Sonopress or its logo, and that in transition periods the old and new name may appear together in the matrix strings

don't forget The "only Rimo" most recent releases (without Entertainment)

not sure how to operate in cases like this
https://discogs.cinepelis.org/release/10523589-REM-In-View-The-Best-Of-REM-1988-2003

aberdeenalternative
cases like this

I don't know how this technically happened or was done, but it looks like a existing Arvato / Sonopress 803/09 LW75 matrix was overwritten in a Arvato 9998/10 IFPI LY92. Can Glass Masters be overwritten? I really don't know.
I've seen things like this on vinyl runouts, and in those cases the old one is ignored and only the new one is credited (for roles that cannot be ambiguous or split, such as Lacquer Cut At or Glass Mastered At)

aberdeenalternative
not sure how to operate in cases like this
https://discogs.cinepelis.org/release/10523589-REM-In-View-The-Best-Of-REM-1988-2003

it´s a good question. I believe Sonopress Brasil would be the best option.

jcomin
I invite some other experts in Brasilian releases before make "Arvato Brasil" new label

Thanks for the "expert" ! I am very active here, not sure an expert, but thanks so much !

By the way I agree with Arvato Brasil and I am changing all releases I have from Arvato

jcomin
For matrix pattern [logo Arvato Digital Services Bertelsmann] SONOPRESS please use Glass Mastered At Sonopress Brasil

Este matrix seria Arvato Brasil ?
[arvato digital services logo] Arvato Digital Services 9165/11 88697964162CD1
Pearl Jam - Twenty

lapcosta


Este matrix seria Arvato Brasil ?
[arvato digital services logo] Arvato Digital Services 9165/11 88697964162CD1
Pearl Jam - Twenty

Yes, for me Arvato Brasil
If the matrix have Arvato logo or Arvato Digital services with out SONOPRESS, were Glass Mastered by Arvato Brasil

So in this case we should replace Arvato Brasil
And delete the LCCN #

Só a nível de informação, recentemente adicionei um release SONOPRESS que tinha um Master SID L030. Primeira vez que pego aqui no Discogs um SID IFPI L030.... vejo muito é L029, LB43 e LB49.
América 4* - Fusão Latina

lapcosta
Primeira vez que pego aqui no Discogs um SID IFPI L030

A recording error? Many credits for IFPI L030 in Europe in the same period, mostly in Russia 1997/8 (https://discogs.cinepelis.org/search/?type=all&barcode=IFPI+L030

I'm seeing Arvato Brasil's releases with pressing numbers added to/kept in LCCN with different patterns by experienced s (I removed all of them from my subs).

Since we know the operation year interval of this pressing company, I guess it could be good to have them for better organization of the page.

https://discogs.cinepelis.org/release/10503203-Led-Zeppelin-Led-Zeppelin-II [this way is more "didactic", but much harder to organize page-wise].

jcomin
So in this case we should replace Arvato Digital Services and Arvato with Arvato Brasil
And delete the LCCN #

This method bugs me because we're crediting something that isn't on the release.
Why not credit "Arvato Digital Services" when that's what it says in the matrix ?

Is "Arvato Brasil" a name they even ever used themselves ? If not, then we're creating a country-specific entry, which is something Discogs has moved away from long ago.

jweijde I agree with you

but we should be consistent and we did the same with Arvato Digital Services, Mexico 7 years ago
and with Arvato Digital Services Bertelsmann, USA 4 years ago

About the alleged inaccuracy in the assignment of the Glass Master's number with "0000/00"

RSG §4.7.2 recommends that only sequential numbers should be credited to other companies, obviously so that two releases are not assigned the same number. From the "point of view" of the duplicate detection system the number 1234/56 is exactly the same as 123456. Releases with 1234/55 or 1234/57 will never be confused with the first one. The error occurs if any digit is omitted. Not crediting the last two digits is a fatal mistake. In this case, we would have the mathematical possibility of 99 releases being identified as duplicates or allocated under the same code on the company's page. As here we are not talking about mathematics but about digits representing the years of production, if we consider Sonopress-Arvato-Rimo range from 1993 to 2021 we could have 28 duplicate possibilities for a release numbered like, say, 1234, but if we credit the complete code as presented in the matrix, we have zero chance of error.

there's no "alleged inaccuracy" of my part. I wrote mere facts.

three approaches are being used:
a) no number / b) xxxx/xx / c xxxx,

I pointed out my favorite one - which may be the least recommended - and I'm ok with that.

For me it is usefull to have these numbers even though are not sequential

And my favorite is xxxx/xx

Hey guys.

I opened a thread similar to this one for "Microservice" and I would like all Brazilian experts to give their opinion on the different CD Matrix/Runout patterns that have changed over the years.

https://discogs.cinepelis.org/forum/thread/924856

Thanks a lot for everyone's help.

I was adding most of the missing Glass Mastered At Rimo Entertainment

I think it is time to update Rimo Entertainment profile
What do you think to add

"Glass Masteres produced at Rimo Entertainment can be identified by [Rimo Entertainment logo] or [RIMO logo] at matrix
and having Mastering SID codes: IFPI LW75, IFPI LY92, IFPI LB49, IFPI L363, IFPI L364
Mould SID codes: IFPI 11xx, IFPI 54xx

In conjunction with the following CD Matrix patterns:

[Rimo Entertainment logo] xxxxx/YY ZZZZZ (from 2013 to 2019)

- xxxxxxx is a number assigned by Rimo for internal cataloguing.
- YY Glass mastered Year.
- ZZZZZ release catalogue number.

[RIMO logo] xxxxx/YY ZZZZZ (from 2019 to 2022)

- xxxxxxx is a number assigned by Rimo for internal cataloguing.
- YY Glass mastered Year.
- ZZZZZ release catalogue number.

Rimo Mastering SID Codes

2013 – 2015 IFPI LW75
2013 – 2015 IFPI LY92
2015 – 2017 IFPI L363
2015 – 2019 IFPI L364
2019 – 2022 [RIMO logo] IFPI L364

What do you think?

jcomin
What do you think?

It's clear and objective, but I definitely don't agree with the mention of Mould Codes referencing a glass master manufacturer. These codes are from the pressing/duplicating machines, and a glass made at Cia. A can be taken to production by Cia. B and the product will not have the Mold SID Codes from Cia. A, contradicting what is described in the profile and causing confusion. So

jcomin
"Glass Masteres produced at Rimo Entertainment can be identified by [Rimo Entertainment logo] or [RIMO logo] at matrix
and having Mastering SID codes: IFPI LW75, IFPI LY92, IFPI LB49, IFPI L363, IFPI L364
Mould SID codes: IFPI 11xx, IFPI 54xx

In conjunction with the following CD Matrix patterns:

[Rimo Entertainment logo] xxxxx/YY ZZZZZ (from 2013 to 2019)

- xxxxxxx is a number assigned by Rimo for internal cataloguing.
- YY Glass mastered Year.
- ZZZZZ release catalogue number.

[RIMO logo] xxxxx/YY ZZZZZ (from 2019 to 2022)

- xxxxxxx is a number assigned by Rimo for internal cataloguing.
- YY Glass mastered Year.
- ZZZZZ release catalogue number.

IMO

lbamaral I agree with you, mention of Mould Codes referencing a glass master manufacturer could be confusing and it is not correct.

So, should we delete from Arvato Brasil profile
Mould SID codes: IFPI 11xx?

jcomin
So, should we delete from Arvato Brasil profile
Mould SID codes: IFPI 11xx?

Yes, definitely

If you guys would let me do my bit, I'd like to suggest that one of the matrix patterns should be as-on-release: [RiMOentertainment logo].

Rep7icant
If you guys would let me do my bit, I'd like to suggest that one of the matrix patterns should be as-on-release: [RiMOentertainment logo].

I agree, so should be
[RiMOentertainment logo]
and [RiMO logo]

jcomin
Rep7icantIf you guys would let me do my bit, I'd like to suggest that one of the matrix patterns should be as-on-release: [RiMOentertainment logo].

I agree, so should be
[RiMOentertainment logo]
and [RiMO logo]

+1

Rimo Entertainment profile updated with info about Glass Masters produced there

After adding Glass Mastered At Rimo Entertainment at some releases I notice that a lot of s add xxxxx as the LCCN#

[Rimo Entertainment logo] xxxxx/YY ZZZZZ (from 2013 to 2019)

- xxxxxxx is a number assigned by Rimo for internal cataloguing.
- YY Glass mastered Year.
- ZZZZZ release catalogue number.

And as we discuss a lot of times, my opinion is that having this sequential number is very convenient.
Also we discuss if it is better to have it as xxxxx or xxxxx/YY

At Rimo Entertainment profile say “Please, sort the catalog numbers by YEAR, because numbers reset by the year, as is common to lots of Brazilian pressing companies.”
So the idea it is adding the xxxxx without the YY

For me it is better and easy to read if we add them with the year as xxxxx/YY

But despite the format we choose we must add something at the label profile to make it clear
Like: this xxxxx/YY pattern can be added to the LCCN section

Invite to add their opinion to some discogs s who added the LCCN # at spepp

Yeah, you know.. I prefer to insert the year at the release year field (it's an approximate year at least) and to add the pressing number without the year, but I know this format will not prevail and that's ok.

Even with a few releases with the matrix number so far listed in the LCCN duplicates like Fernando & Sorocaba - Sou Do Interior (Ao Vivo) (both 3108, but the first one is "/14" and the second one is "/17") are already found. If they had been credited with the full code they wouldn't be anywhere near each other.
It must be ed that the vast majority of s do not transfer the matrix number to the LCCN. If that happened we would have a huge number of ambiguous codes, as the same number before the slash must have been used in all years of production.

The Doors - A Collection (2011) matches 9394
It is not difficult to find matches using https://discogs.cinepelis.org/search/advanced searching for "Label Sonopress Brasil" + "Barcode ****/". With numbers less than 9999 it is almost certain to find at least one, with some patience more than one, especially for lower numbers

I also prefer to add them with the /year

But the most important question is:
The xxxxx/YY is not a sequential number, but IMO is very useful to have it

So, should we add it as LCCN#?

I can't really give a real opinion on that, but I'm all for the more complete version if that makes sense.

jcomin
But the most important question is:
The xxxxx/YY is not a sequential number, but IMO is very useful to have it
So, should we add it as LCCN#?

The code is unique, unambiguous if fully credited. For the duplicate identification engine the "/YY" is no more than 3 characters, and that's what matters. We know that this is a coding for the year of production of the glass master and we use it as such, which is also good and correct.

So, we will tag Rimo Entertainment with Glass Mastered At tag, right?

Miki242
So, we will tag Rimo Entertainment with Glass Mastered At tag, right?

I add this at Rimo Entertainment profile

"Glass Masteres produced at Rimo Entertainment can be identified by [Rimo Entertainment logo] or [RIMO logo] at matrix
and having Mastering SID codes: IFPI LW75, IFPI LY92, IFPI LB49, IFPI L363, IFPI L364"

So I tag with Glass Mastered At when I was adding it at the releases

I believe the decision already made is the right one. Despite the preference equal to aberdeenalternative.
Given the previous comments the year (/YY) must be included in the Glass Mastered At so that there are no duplicates as described by lbamaral; since there is no obvious sequel used by Rimo. Which would avoid possible Duplicates.

I add at Rimo Entertainment profile this
When entering Glass Mastered At Rimo Entertainment in the LCCN section, add xxxxx/YY in the catalog number field.

And also began adding xxxx/YY at LCCN #
I started with the items with released year before 2013, which are not correct because Rimo Entertainment started in 2013

The number xxxxx/YY should be used also for Sonopress at LCCN?

lapcosta
The number xxxxx/YY should be used also for Sonopress at LCCN?

I think the same reasoning used to justify the use of the code on Arvato Brasil

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> duplicated post <<

lbamaral
lapcostaThe number xxxxx/YY should be used also for Sonopress at LCCN?
I think the same reasoning used to justify the use of the code on Rimo Entertainment is also valid for Sonopress Brasil and for Arvato Brasil

I agree

I just finished at Rimo Entertainment with all the CDs Glass Mastered in 2013
IMO the order at the label profile looks good

Rimo Entertainment does not have any CD with low number/13
Because these were used by Arvato Brasil in the begining of 2013

So IMO Arvato Brasil

And in the cases of small numbers/13 from Arvato Brasil

I still dint find the same xxxx/13 from Arvato Brasil

jcomin
I agree

+1

jcomin
I agree, so should be
[RiMOentertainment logo]
and [RiMO logo]

+1

lbamaral
lapcostaThe number xxxxx/YY should be used also for Sonopress at LCCN?
I think the same reasoning used to justify the use of the code on Rimo Entertainment is also valid for Sonopress Brasil and for Arvato Brasil

also novodisc br?

aberdeenalternative
also novodisc br?

There's no reason - that I'm aware of - to treat one any differently than the other. If it is a unique and unambiguous sequence that identify the company the code can be credited without any problems. In the case of Novodisc, I still don't see any reason not to unify them all in a single entry for glass master credit, as we already have for Videolar and Microservice. The fact that they used different numbering standards at different times does not change the fact that, as in the other companies, all production took place in the same laboratory/facility.

Just so you know, there's a new Brazilian 2022 company in town (back in action?). See Exumer - The Raging Tides
Not sure how it should be edited. Glass Mastered at Videolar-Innova? at Innova?